[2.5.11]Bound Eye

[GregerMoek]

You're pretty narrow minded if you think that isn't a nerf to bound eye bro

Moreover, 700g isn't a big investment to counter wards even if you have to carry it around for a longer while. If you just swept the whole map of wards, or the important spots. And it, for example, nets you a Kongor kill, you already got the gold back, same with a tower or just a successful gank.


A well placed ward is worth more gold than 100g, for those who can't grasp that concept I suggest you don't discuss further.

[Gaminos]

You're pretty narrow minded if you think that isn't a nerf to bound eye bro

Moreover, 700g isn't a big investment to counter wards even if you have to carry it around for a longer while. If you just swept the whole map of wards, or the important spots. And it, for example, nets you a Kongor kill, you already got the gold back, same with a tower or just a successful gank.

exactly you would be narrow minded if you didnt think that was a nerf to the risk, not the cost of the item so hopefully you agree

now imagine that the courier could not pick it up, meaning you had to walk it from base in order to counter ward. The moment you see an enemy with the eye your team initiates a push on towers or a gank attempt

the player with the eye is forced to join the fight with the eye

or

walk all the way back to base to store the eye then tp, meaning they are late to the fight which could have drastic consequences

[[GM]Cyber_Kun]

ORRRRR

You won a teamfight and just counterward the entire map.
You have an aggressive ward so it is safe enough to counterward the entire map.
You bring your team and counterward the entire map.
Your team has map control and you continue to counterward the entire map.

Just making it impossible for the Courier to use or even pick up will not solve much of anything.

[GregerMoek]

Yes, the risk is slightly bigger, there are means to dodge teamfights however, especially if you've cut away some wards.

As soon as you lose a team fight or become at a disadvantage in a game you can basically forget about wards, even if they are cleverly placed someone can just sweep the area with their ward-radar.

Like, even if you risk losing it, and you just stumble upon a ward that you had no idea was placed there you can just "durphurp a ward! damn nice my eye found it for me, because I'm a trashwarder but eye fixes everything"

[foxmindedguy]

Yes, the risk is slightly bigger, there are means to dodge teamfights however, especially if you've cut away some wards.

As soon as you lose a team fight or become at a disadvantage in a game you can basically forget about wards, even if they are cleverly placed someone can just sweep the area with their ward-radar.

Like, even if you risk losing it, and you just stumble upon a ward that you had no idea was placed there you can just "durphurp a ward! damn nice my eye found it for me, because I'm a trashwarder but eye fixes everything"

Eye doesn't give clear-vision. Thus, you might not have yellow-warded a heightened spot and therefore would not have a clue the enemy ward was placed there.

Secondly, having an eye and counterwarding their wards can only help so much. If they have a blinker or initiators, they can easily gimp your support if your team is found offguard or outnumbered while landing 4 attacks on their wards. Now they have the eye and there is a chance you will get to taste your own medicine.

I know that Bound Eye is very strong, but it is a necessary evil. It's drop on death is what makes it balanced. Also there is nothing stop you from picking up a Bound Eye for your team, if their support has one. You could also invest 700g and pretty much fog their vision as well.

Nothing wrong with playing in darkness

[[GM]Cyber_Kun]

Eye doesn't give clear-vision. Thus, you might not have yellow-warded a heightened spot and therefore would not have a clue the enemy ward was placed there.

Apperently no one has any clearvision in the entire game. Or couriers don't exist. Or you can't get teamwork. Obviously some spots in the map would require a bit of work but saying this is a real downside is shortsighted. You do know, if you stop to think about this point you figure out how shortsighted it is. This is like saying as a Con on Pharaoh that he is melee and not ranged. Okay, it is true but only an idiot would attempt to say it is a real issue. This is like saying pre-nerf HotbL was not OP because it blocked 40 hp and not 60.

Secondly, having an eye and counterwarding their wards can only help so much. If they have a blinker or initiators, they can easily gimp your support if your team is found offguard or outnumbered while landing 4 attacks on their wards. Now they have the eye and there is a chance you will get to taste your own medicine.

Have you played this game at all? Assuming you have more map control than... none at all, you will not get jumped. If you fear that much about getting jumped, not like it is hard to get some bloody teammates.

I know that Bound Eye is very strong, but it is a necessary evil. It's drop on death is what makes it balanced. Also there is nothing stop you from picking up a Bound Eye for your team, if their support has one. You could also invest 700g and pretty much fog their vision as well.

Why is it necessary? Is it necessary for terrible supports that don't know how to counter-ward or control the map? Is it necessary for once one team to have a better map control to automatically get complete map control?

Also, nothing stopping the other team from getting the item is NEVER A BLOODY SOLUTION. It doesn't change anything about the item being OP or UP.

Nothing wrong with playing in darkness

Have you ever played this game?

[[eR]Ekamo]

We need less mind-less suggestions, not more.

[[IaF]Skyve]

The problematic with bound eye is:

It's the best item to counterward with, especially because it can't be misplaced.
There are heroes that excel at abusing it's counterwarding ability (Fayde, Tundra, EW).
It significantly weakens certain heroes' escape mechanisms, while mobility escapes are MUCH more expensive to counter.
You can simply stash it when you stop counterwarding.
It's overall much better than counterwards.
It makes it harder for a losing team to gain any form of map control, assisting in more one-sided games.

[foxmindedguy]

Apperently no one has any clearvision in the entire game. Or couriers don't exist. Or you can't get teamwork. Obviously some spots in the map would require a bit of work but saying this is a real downside is shortsighted. You do know, if you stop to think about this point you figure out how shortsighted it is. This is like saying as a Con on Pharaoh that he is melee and not ranged. Okay, it is true but only an idiot would attempt to say it is a real issue. This is like saying pre-nerf HotbL was not OP because it blocked 40 hp and not 60.

Just because other things are powerful, we should nerf an item that is strong because of those other things?? That does not make sense. What you are saying is because Y exists significantly, X is powerful. Thus, our conclusion is to gut X. Instead of going for the actual problem, which is Y. Y is clear-vision, X is bound eye in this case. This is like saying Flux should be nerfed because Behemoth deals crazy damage to clumped masses.

Why does Courier have so much clear-vision? What stops me from buying 3 winged couriers and using them for scouting like Tundra's bird? Is that not overpowered? Can a bound eye (or anything for that matter) counter the vision these wing couriers would provide?

Of course this is assuming I am good at microing and know when to shield my couriers and take them to safety when ambushed.

I have said it before, the game already has too much unnecessary clear-vision. That is the primary issue that we are not addressing, instead we want to gut Bound Eye.

Valkyrie does NOT need vision on her Javelin.
Flint does NOT need vision on his Flare.
Bubbles does NOT need vision on his Shell Surf.
Fayde does NOT need vision on her Deep Shadows.
Fayde does NOT need so much clear-vision on her ultimate. Should be 600 max, IMHO.
Emerald Warden does NOT need vision on his ultimate.
I am sure I am missing a lot more unnecessary (stacked on) clear-visions.

Slither Toxic wards vision got nerfed because it was deemed too powerful. It is time we treat all the other heroes in the same fashion and then see where Bound Eye stands after that.

Have you played this game at all? Assuming you have more map control than... none at all, you will not get jumped. If you fear that much about getting jumped, not like it is hard to get some bloody teammates.

Err.. There is only so much you can ward and I don't even understand how this point came in Bound Eye discussion (maybe I was tripping). Bound Eye kills wards, thus makes gankers of your team viable.

Why is it necessary? Is it necessary for terrible supports that don't know how to counter-ward or control the map?

WTF? Why does RA exist? Is he necessary for players who don't know how to manage mana?

Why does EW exist? Is he necessary for players who prefer auto-piloting?

Or are you simply against non-consumable items? Perhaps we should remove health and mana regeneration items because you would be deeming them unnecessary next. Calling people, who don't know when to pop pots, noobs. As HON is not balanced around noobs, passive regeneration items shouldn't exist. Right?

Is it necessary for once one team to have a better map control to automatically get complete map control?

I don't even know if you are serious or trolling me now. How does getting a bound-eye automatically destroy all wards? You have to actually hunt for them. You and your team might be going up a cliff to search for a ward on a heightened area and might end up against 5 of them. But as they were at a height, they were ready for you and your team wasn't.

Unless you can have vision on all the cliffs, turns, fog-spots of the game. There is no guarantee that you would safely be able to completely rid the enemy ward vision.

Hell even if there is common vision of a place, if their team is strong they can actually avert you from destroying that specific ward by camping the place.

In conclusion, having a bound eye is not game-breaking. It is a 700g upfront investment that can actually end up in your opponent's inventory for free. Your argument actually makes no ****ing sense to me. If someone is willing to risk 700g, he SHOULD get better map control for it.

Many items ARE multi-purposed. Deal with it.

I could suggest giving it the same mechanics as Scout's Electric Eye detection when lacking true-sight of it. From this I mean, unless the bound eye holder is within 400-500 radius of the wards, s/he won't be able to see it. But I do not recommend going through with this change because to me there is nothing wrong with this item. And the only thing I can settle for is simply a cost increase of this relic (maybe 100, no more than 300 for sure).

PS: As you have compared apples to oranges. I did not refrain from doing the same.

[[S2]Dawnbringer]

Bound eye on Tundra.

700 gold and you have completely shut down enemy wards and as a result their map awareness. That is a huge thing. Is the item too strong? Personally, I feel a few nerfs wouldn't go amiss, on certain heroes the item is INCREDIBLY strong.

[GregerMoek]

Win team fight -> Clear the wards you don't want against you.

You know that warding isn't about only hiding your wards somewhere so they can't be found, you want vision from the too. There are tons of generic ward spots as well as some well known semi-generic ones. There are of course going to be some pretty unknown spots but the big thing about counterwarding is to call where the opponent's ward are. Not only does Eye make this very simple, if you only have some kind of clue of where the wards might or might not be. After a won team fight you can basically guess.

Another thing with rev wards vs bound eye, Rev wards are not mobile, if you screwed up some kind of rev ward positioning (area around Kong is one of those places that you'd need around 4 rev wards to cover the whole area) you'll have to place another rev ward if you suspect a ward is in the area. Bound eye clears that burden from your shoulders.

The "investment" in a bound eye is much less than what is obvious.

Basically you can be a pretty bad support in terms of counterwarding and you can just ask your big friend Tundra or whatever to buy the eye and problem is solved.

Puzzlebox is in my opinion a much better version of the mobile counterward. Mostly because it can be dealt with by opponents, you often use it in team fights making the overall pain train from a lost team fight much less in terms of warding. The thing with this is that the winning team still has a good chance of counterwarding with regular counterwards, only difference is that they have to use their heads.

Same with making courier default for teams etc etc, supports invest less in vision in the long run, because there is an item that makes it so much easier.

[embrance]

its a risky pickup early game as its so easy to lose if focused and the loss of 700 gold definately puts the team who lost it at a disadvantage

by mid-late game both teams can safely afford it so i cant see this being an issue

as stated above if you have issues with hero's that are primarily based around invisibility than those hero's should be addressed, not the item.

just think all these hero's are often used and they have a form of invisibility



not to mention the recent addition of Genjuro and all the heros who use it

you have to look past scout/nh and think about all the other heros which are already considered balanced that would benefit from the item costing more

please stop these item change threads unless completely necessary, as they have too many consequences due to the fact of the extremely diverse hero pool

This.Also note that Bound Eye is a mechanic/Item that BOTH teams can benefit from it.Just buy it and stop b*tching all the time why this and why that.

[[IaF]Skyve]

This.Also note that Bound Eye is a mechanic/Item that BOTH teams can benefit from it.Just buy it and stop b*tching all the time why this and why that.

Oh great, with that logic let's add an item for 1 gold with a 10,000 range 900 damage aura. Balanced because both teams can get it.

[embrance]

The problem Skyve isnt the item per se.Some people mentioned that the past changes in both courier and how wards work,are the ones that brought up the problem.So now what?

Most people in game below 1700+ NEVER buy one.I BEG for them to even ward let alone buy an eye.
It a situatinal problem(if its really one)not a real one.

[[IaF]Skyve]

first of all - DONT FIX WHAT IS NOT BROKEN.
unless it's picked in every competitive game every damn time to counter wards, there is no reason to even discuss bound eye "problem".

Maybe you should watch some competitive games then.

The problem Skyve isnt the item per se.Some people mentioned that the past changes in both courier and how wards work,are the ones that brought up the problem.So now what?

That has nothing to do with eye being too efficient and being easily abuseable.

[[HLN]OJPhoenix]

What if there was a mechanic that changed Bound Eye to not give Truesight forever?

- Only working for a duration before it stops working / breaks etc
- Having charges to allow it to work (at a certain sight radius even perhaps) while they are constantly lost unless something is done to reaquire charges, such as having to go back to the fountain
- Have it only work on your side of the river

There are plenty of ways you can make the Bound Eye a less permanent solution to anti-Invisibility. If such a depreciation was powerful enough, it might not even need to drop on death.

[Z00lander]

I do not see much of a problem from the item since it is equally viable for both teams. Seems to me like a similar situation with Sol's Bulwark. The team that capitalizes on counter-warding first should reap a benefit from the new edge, while the opposite team should quickly buy an eye to get on the same footing. ex. Their carry is farming well so lets gank him -> they are counter warding us so lets do something. I blame a team instead of the item for watching as they are being outplayed.

[Herbert_West]

Time and time again it has been stated that both teams being able to pick up item X does not equal item X being balanced.

[[IaF]Skyve]

The team that capitalizes on counter-warding first should reap a benefit from the new edge, while the opposite team should quickly buy an eye to get on the same footing.

And what if the first team simply uses eye and takes down all enemy wards while placing their own, has complete mapcontrol and uses it to prevent the other team from ever setting up any useful wards? Because that actually happens. And there isn't much you can do against that, because without vision you won't be able to take their eye anyways, unless it's a teamfight, and most teams will send their eye to safety when they push anyways (unless against certain heroes, and even then - during pushes you can use counterwards to the same effect mostly, leaving your eye safe).

[pechkin]

And what if the first team simply uses eye and takes down all enemy wards while placing their own, has complete mapcontrol and uses it to prevent the other team from ever setting up any useful wards? Because that actually happens. And there isn't much you can do against that, because without vision you won't be able to take their eye anyways, unless it's a teamfight, and most teams will send their eye to safety when they push anyways (unless against certain heroes, and even then - during pushes you can use counterwards to the same effect mostly, leaving your eye safe).

adjust and go push the lane, or kill them, or do some other ****. If you cant do it, you lost the game, deal with it?
in the end they still will have to push your 3rd tier towers, where eye wont help them.
oh and noone mentioned yet afaik, the only broken thing with eye is that you can put it in courier after you are done diffusing enemy wards and have it safe in your stash, thats probable the only mechanic that needs to be changed.