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  1. #1
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    Shorter games and hon

    Dogkeiser says that a 50 minute game is way too long.

    I disagree. Gone are the days of nailbiting finishes in literally every match, where the carries actually mattered and games were longer, but more nailbiting in the end and more fun to watch.

    These days all we get are steamrolls, the game is decided fairly early, and that is why you see teams liek it's gosu not even bothering picking carries any more.i only saw maybe 2 come from behind wins in last 6 months.

    The new heroes and item changes make steamrolling easier, and the fans that watch comp streams and honcast suffer because of it. Teams have a harder time now to mount a defence midgame once even one person dies, towers have become a joke, especially with the tanky dps hotbl 5 man roam that honportal and itsgosu (top 2 teams ) run.

    I don't know how to fix it, but just wanted to share my thoughts.

  2. #2
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    Well, you missed some pieces in the puzzle.

    1. Not ALL games should be short he said, only that the average game should be lower.

    2. The reason why they should get slightly lower still is so we can avoid that 10 minute farm phase to simply end a game that is over anyway. That is not fun, neither for the spectators or players. A lot of games are really over by the 30th minute but the team in the lead usually doesn't have the means to finish.

    Then again, we've seen some pretty wicked comebacks which I think everybody can thoroughly enjoy.
    "What is freedom of expression? Without the freedom to offend, it ceases to exist.

  3. #3
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    i disagree. we've seen a lot of base rushes, liek the zephyr mega creeps one and fayde world tree one. but i do no recal many come from behind ones


    the game was made artificially far shorter with the 2 buyback limit.


    and then started coming out bulswarks and Ras and midases, cthuluphants, silhouettes etc
    Last edited by lolb0t; 02-18-2012 at 05:35 AM.

  4. #4
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    Too much advantage is secured from a single team fight due to assist gold. The game is also very poorly balanced atm & if/when the game gets back to a relatively balanced state you will see more nail biting games.

    Competitors are pretty much unanimously against the way Kaiser is balancing the game.
    Check out my HON stream at: http://www.twitch.tv/coljah

  5. #5
    Just a question I've been wondering for quite the while. Does kaiser even look at the "competitive balance discussion"??

    Some of the balance decision suck to be honest and I'm fairly sure players could got it right instead of someone behind the desk not even knowing how zephyr's cyclones work

  6. #6
    I believe the philosophy behind "shortening" game time is a trend all the way back from dota days where the downfall of the game to flourish as an e-sport were +60 minute games.

    I agree that was valid reasoning to the average joe viewer, and completely false to the informed viewer who knew the inner workings of the meta game and could understand the flow and "small battles" being won/lost here and there etc.

    Not sure if this is a good example but sort of like basketball and soccer.... in bball there is alot more scoring and its alot more entertaining to an average viewer who doesnt understand soccer nor basketball.. like a girlfriend or w/e. But in soccer there is less scoring so the entertainment of the game is in other parts.. NOT scoring.. which is what the average viewer enjoys to see because he/she understands that the most.

    I believe HoN wants to appeal to the masses so shortening game length in their opinion will induce action, "scoring", etc. I feel like DOGKaiser + crew undervalued the balance which dota provided.. and thought they could do a job just as well if not better. (notice how dota2 kept dota1 balance to a ****en T)

    Like Jah mentioned... the shorter the game the faster the snowball rolls down.. the less room the "losing" team is given to make a comeback. Eg. lose a team fight 15min in... possibly lose 2 towers, instead of losing 2k gold as team you lose 3.2k.. and assist gold actually makes the discrepancy to like 4k in major fight cases. Oh and the cheesiest part about that ? .. using that lead to just farm away for a greater lead.

    Not sure who to blame... id say the arrogance of hon balance team.. even if it was indirect.

  7. #7
    Its simply a case of somebody who doesn't possess the skill level to do their job correctly, so of-course they make mistakes.

    After being constantly criticized for making these mistakes, this person then decides to do nothing at all in fear of making more mistakes.

    That my friends is HoN balance.

  8. #8
    They are in the process of hiring another balance designer afaik.

    Hope this person got some balls to do ****.
    Gooby pls...

  9.   This is the last staff post in this thread.   #9
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    So in the past week, I've started a system in the private Competitors forum* where they nominate issues to be discussed and then have in depth discussions on approved topics. Kaiser pays close attention to these threads and, as a result of the excellent discussion, is able to get great information from it. There is a change going into testing next week as a direct result of one of these threads.

    And games should be shorter for many reasons. One of them certainly is that it makes it a lot better for e-Sports but the main one is that it would allow people to play MORE games of HoN. If the average game length was around 35-40 minutes, its easier to fit multiple games in one session.





    *This section has always been used but the competitors would easily get off topic and not provide the necessary amount of information to get good insight. This process seeks to achieve that.

  10. #10
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    why not make casual mode standard then? it had even shorter games.

    you have to find the right balance between game time and actual game competitiveness.

    you sacrifice game time, you sacrifice a lot of balance, and then there is issue of power creep that comes with that, via items and heroes
    do you agree ?


    maybe creep mechanics (HP/damage points, timings of catapults, spawns etc) have to be reworked to allow for faster gameflow instead of certain items/heroe design? tower mechanics once again? rax regen rate increased? . i dont know. at least those things are consistent for both sides, unlike item and hero choices




    i am just saying as a fan of honcast, and a fan that gets up at 4-5am to watch honreplays streams, the viewing of most matches has become a little bland to see mostgames decided at 25 minute mark or earlier

    if you see the average times on honcast, they have dropped from 50-60 mins, that i used to watch at work to pass time (i think i watched every vod on honcast) to around 35-40 min average lately.

    sure shorter games as they say. but at what cost.
    Last edited by lolb0t; 02-18-2012 at 07:42 AM.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by JAH` View Post
    Too much advantage is secured from a single team fight due to assist gold. The game is also very poorly balanced atm & if/when the game gets back to a relatively balanced state you will see more nail biting games.
    this is true, the game is unbalanced at the moment. This is because of several radical changes being made that have to be fixed. Big changes that are made need small changes to make it work and not broken as it is now. Right now s2 is trying to fix these small parts to make their previous decisions work (which is a shame they didn't do right away bt yea).

    As for DK's statement, I agree because if you compare MOBA games like that to other games you will see that the average game time is WAY larger. I wouldn't be suprised that because of this several LAN's have decided to either not add a MOBA game or just add one of them. They just can't fit it in the time schedule because the games take so long.

    edit: lolb0t makes an interesting point about creep mechanics

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by xanderK View Post
    *This section has always been used but the competitors would easily get off topic and not provide the necessary amount of information to get good insight. This process seeks to achieve that.
    there is no reason to point fingers when you're on that side of the discussion

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by JAH` View Post
    Too much advantage is secured from a single team fight due to assist gold. The game is also very poorly balanced atm & if/when the game gets back to a relatively balanced state you will see more nail biting games.

    Competitors are pretty much unanimously against the way Kaiser is balancing the game.
    could you give a few examples or reasons of what he is doing that is so wrong ?

  14. #14
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    Every single S2 person always says that they look at the competitor's forum closely blah blah blah

    But NOTHING ever gets done or changes. I call bullshit.

    I don't understand what this BadaBing is trying to say either, I think he thinks he's caught someone using the word unanimously incorrectly but...he hasn't.

  15. #15
    i dont get it. avr games (if checking some stats of players) is between 30 and 35 min. How is that too long exactly?

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matze View Post
    i dont get it. avr games (if checking some stats of players) is between 30 and 35 min. How is that too long exactly?
    it USED to be between 40-60 average

  17. #17
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    You can say games should be shorter all you want, doesn't change the fact that the metagame is **** atm and will be unless stupid changes get reverted. I don't know how you can justify poor balance with "games have to be shorter", it is just plain stupid.

  18. #18
    Remove an item slot. Now the game will be 15 minutes slower.

    // One of my few troll posts.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cvein View Post
    Remove an item slot. Now the game will be 15 minutes slower.

    // One of my few troll posts.
    Don't be surprised if you end up seeing this. I mean, they already added bulwark and left it for months untouched....

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by tkothethrill View Post
    Don't be surprised if you end up seeing this. I mean, they already added bulwark and left it for months untouched....
    Untouched is a strong word, but I get your point.


    The meta game right now is so so stale, risk-free and boring... tanky dps heroes all over the place like combined with strong pushers or creep-wave insta gibbers like . There is also often a semi-carry on each team that carries harder than it should have because of shieldbreaker .

    The rest of the spots are filled with heroes to make sure that your tanky dps:er or semi-carry with great escape meka never die .
    Gooby pls...

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