Let's make SW viable again

[SweetBro]

We discuss random builds, test them, until we find something that works.

Testing Runed + Shards

[SweetBro]

First game went okay. I was stuck in a 2v1 lane bot vs pyro and flint so I didn't much farm. But, I managed to come back strong with 460 gpm.

Build order was Runed -> Steam -> Vestments -> Riftshards -> Sol's -> Assault.
Finished 8-7-26

[SweetBro]

Second game went really poorly. I was forced into mid lane zeph. Only managed to get runed up before half my team DC/AFK.

[Sandtrap]

I know! Let's try helm->mock->fws/heart/geos

[ExiledTyrant]

:HelmOfTheBlackLegio :Steamboots: :BarbedArmor: :WhisperingHelm: :Thunderclaw: :Brutalizer: before

:SacrificialStone: :Steamboots: :BarbedArmor: :ChargedHammer: :SymbolOfRage: :Brutalizer: after

[SweetBro]

Ooh, I like the barbed pick up. I think I'll try getting it post my runed. I don't see why you'd wanna pick up symbol of rage though since by that build he isn't hitting too hard to make it worth while the farm.

[ExiledTyrant]

Ooh, I like the barbed pick up. I think I'll try getting it post my runed. I don't see why you'd wanna pick up symbol of rage though since by that build he isn't hitting too hard to make it worth while the farm.

burst healing to negate the firs tload of damage being delt to you during the fight. just pop barbed and hammer and rush in the use helm to heal back the damage. you basically wind a big bloated sac of damage absorbtion that spits out tons of chain lightning over the course of the fight. can usually drop 2 or 3 people before dying even if you didnt land a single hit.

[PrestonLee]

it isn't rocket science..
Core: :Steamboots: :HelmOfTheBlackLegio :NullfireBlade: :GeometersBane:

Then pick up a luxury depending on situation: :FrostwolfsSkull: aemonicBreastplate :Mock: :Wingbow: :ElderParasite: :Genjuro: :Brutalizer: :ShrunkenHead: :SymbolOfRage:

Then finally disassemble :HelmOfTheBlackLegio into :BehemothsHeart: and/or :Nullstone:, grab another above luxury if you don't disassemble into both heart and nullstone

If mock luxury is chosen then it can be taken earlier when the farm permits; you can consider spellshards luxury if you take mock. Lowers ulti and nuke cooldown and makes your mock buttrape

Tada, viable sandwraith that isn't that useless! Well, at least in comparison to other Melee carries

I even skip hotbl half the time, I don't play him as a tonk, I play him as a dps Melee carry that excels in cleaning up teamfights/insta-supporting ganks with your huge deserted dps and huge aoe trailing slow, not "I farm mock for 20 min, build tank, press R and hope enemy team is stupid enough to not buy barrier/shrunkens or I lose" build.

tl;dr - Geos is core or you're doing it wrong

[[No13]KAB00000000M]

Have you ever tried:

:EnhancedMarchers:
:AbyssalSkull:
:BarbedArmor:
:NullfireBlade:

It is a early jungle build. And you can kill people so fast. It is really good. Some old dota players did it in some games. I can't remember the game id.

[zorzs]

isnt jungling with way too slow? also he really needs that early tanky items

[Sandtrap]

Why is everyone considering nullfire as a core item now that it doesn't propogate to the illusions? Wasn't something you should pick up every game even before the nerf and it doesn't really synergy with sw at all now.

[ExiledTyrant]

no idea. he doesn't really have the attack speed or steroid to warrent dumping as much gold into an item like nullfire and still gain as many benefits as he could from other items.

if you want to jungle early you can make a whispering helm and do ancients by as early as level 7 with just helm and a creep depending on what you get. helm also helps you gank easier and clear jungle much faster before you have items to do so.

[PrestonLee]

Nullfire is great because:

1. If they are isolated you can purge them so they can't run to a position where they can avoid deserted damage
2. helps greatly for chasing targets that are fleeing
3. Gives good attack speed because of the agi, which makes you able to get more deserted procs
4. Mana burn obviously, to help chip at a targets mana so they'll end up not being able to retaliate nor run when getting focused by sw
5. gives +int which he could use with his low mana pool

it's not really core, but it's definitely a strong pickup to consider as it synergizes greatly with his deserted true damage passive.

Most people are too hellbent on focusing on capitalizing on sw's dissipate that they tend to forget that deserted pretty much destroys heroes running away in cleanup situations, and nullfire accentuates deserted greatly, making sw the ultimate clean-up hero. It doesn't matter that much that it doesn't propagate to illusions anymore, it's still a strong pickup on him.

Geos is also taken for the extra mobility to stick to your target like glue, the extra attack speed to abuse that deserted proc, and the disjoint is just always great for getting rid of debuffs and/or confusing the enemy in teamfights, especially because both sandwraith and his illusions can unit+tree+cliff walk thanks to his nuke.

[SweetBro]

I think SnY does pretty much all that (Minus the burn and int which ins't enough for one more Q cast fyi) and also makes him tankier which synergizes better with Dissipate.

[Mankrik]

It's not nearly as much damage, though. And purge is a pretty big deal, both offensively and defensively. People seem to forget you can purge yourself of some pretty significant debuffs. Good examples include smitten, crippling volley, swarm, leech/facehug, and I believe crippling pollen.

[PrestonLee]

I think SnY does pretty much all that (Minus the burn and int which ins't enough for one more Q cast fyi) and also makes him tankier which synergizes better with Dissipate.

I also think frostburn is situationally great, and you can get both nullfire and frostburn as well, making your chasing power huge. Fws+Geos disassemble(+abyssal) is also strong on sw as well.

Like above said though, nullfire gives you a lot more auto attack dps and purge is underrated, and nullfire+Geos leaves your attack mod slot open to Allow you to consider symbol of rage which is effing huge coupled with Geos+nullfire dps. Granted this is a lot of farm, it has potential to do WAy more dissipate damage than your average shitty hotbl+heart+barbed tonk build (lifestealing back yields much more ehp so long as you're auto attacking) along with the big auto attack damage from the agi pickups.

going back to opening post, runed axe is kinda lol.. I'd only pick it up if you got raxed and need a *fast* creep clearing utility; then with agi/aspd pickups you'd be able to use cleaver effectively. any other reason is kinda troll on sandwraith lol, just get mock if you want that big farming tool.

[bigtfatty]

He's been nerfed to oblivion so unless you got a boner for SW, play somebody else till he gets changed.

[[420]Shocker420]

Why is everyone considering nullfire as a core item now that it doesn't propogate to the illusions? Wasn't something you should pick up every game even before the nerf and it doesn't really synergy with sw at all now.

Sw uses illusions more than any other hero.Since only base damage is used by illusions all the agi in nullfire is nice. I cant remember if illusions get the extra attack speed from the agi too but that would make it even better.

A lot of times he is ignored in fights whether its the confusion of his illusions or being able to come in and out of fights from anywhere. Being able to chip away at mana and have 2 strong slows makes him a lil more of a threat mid game.

[[WnK]LuckyStrike`]

He's been nerfed to oblivion so unless you got a boner for SW, play somebody else till he gets changed.

lol my sentiments exactly, though sw is a pretty fun pubstompin hero who can rage any noob :P

[Sandtrap]

The reasons for nullfire are really bad tbh, currently it's basically a pure dps item (albeit a decent one for sw) and this isn't what he needs at all (it's not as bad as all the people getting shieldbreaker on sw, but mostly for the same reasons). The dmg output of mock and nullfire on sw isn't even close to the same level and once mock is acquired focusing on survivability is usually the main priority (fws, heart), if you do need more damage a geometers is far superior to nullfire in most situations, with the added bonus of some survivability.

I don't see why people value the purge higher on sw then on other heroes, especially when he already has a slow in his skillset. The mana burn isn't particulary strong on sw compared to other heroes either, he has no built-in way to increase his ias and shouldn't build ias items in most games.

Nullfire is in no way a weak item, I love to pick it up in many games, but since the nerfs to illusions/nullfire it's a item that should be picked up depending on your opposition (hb, monarch, etc) and not a core item on basically any hero (possibly excluding nh, for obvious reasons). Nullfire isn't significantly stronger on sw then some other agi hero with a geo's bane (the added illusion dmg from the ulti isn't that significant, and he takes comparatively bad advantage of the slow and burn), so if you don't get it on them you don't really have a strong case for getting it on sw.

Edit: For everyone making the case that nullfire helps his ulti a lot, the difference between doing a ulti at level 16 with mock+steams and mock+steams+nullfire should be between 0 and 40 damage/target over the entire duration, depending on ms and armor. Assuming that the target has normal ms and armor (350, 10) the damage increase should be about 10 dmg (please correct me if my numbers are incorrect, they honestly seem low even to me). This simply isn't enough to make nullfire significantly better on sw over some other agi hero (which most likely needs the slow more and has superior ias to make better use the burn).