[2.5.10] Harkon's Blade

[Orchest]

Later towers just favour vlads more.

10 armour is reasonable ganking into a farming hero's lane, if rott or a bulwark are happening it'll be a little more. For most other situations, a little less. Seemed like a scent midpoint.

The third scenario is mislabeled as 10 armour at one point. It's 15, since it's meant to represent solid midgame.

[GregerMoek]

So.

After a lot of deliberation, over a number of years, I've come to the decision that Harkons shouldn't have a manacost.

The problem with the entire mana argument is that neither side engages the elephant in the room. "Harkons costs too much mana!" - "Harkons gives mana for 6 hits!" (implying the manacost is inconsequential) - discussion fizzles.

Here's the thing, if the manacost is inconsequential, then removing it should be an inconsequential change. Ironically, after claiming the manacost is inconsequential, and using it as an argument against lowering it, the same parties argue its batshit strong, and suffers from a bad image.

Meanwhile, the elephant has finished the tea party with muppets and snuck out of the room in the confusion.

The elephant is that no one builds Harkons even when it passes all the tests to be the best pickup; best damage, no counters present, no requirement for an alternative orb. People are rational actors, and had plenty of exposure to the item through PM when he was OP, but never adopted it elsewhere.

People don't ignore an item or hero like this because of an image problem, they ignore it because of perceived problems with it.

Rationally, Harkons loses to everything else early and normally mid. Buying it before super late is investing in the brilliant strategy of Not Winning Yet, also known as Throwing. This is before counters even come into question.

Harkons being the Right Item requires a confluence of events comparable to planets and stars aligning.

As pointed out, you can't really buff the damage aspect more, because without counters it's already batshit, you can't make it not an orb, because that opens up familiar life steal abuse, you can't make it cheaper, or easier to build, because game breaking items need to have high threshold components to make them a strategic choice for a team, rather than a coincidental biproduct of what you were doing anyway.

Which pretty much leaves you with three options.
Make an inconsequential buff to it to "promote" it.
Add a new effect (eg truestrike) to give it a second niche.
Remove the manacost to make the item a decision based more around counters than your own hero.

Personally, option 2 or 3. Or 2 and 3 and an increase to the recipe cost (since they're both good ideas).

I'll be honest and say I think the item is fine, and prefer other damage items adjusted instead because I want this game to be Heroes of Newerth instead of items of Newerth.

However, if Harkon's Blade would need a buff, I'd prefer a mix between your suggestions 1+3. That would mean lowering on use cost instead of actually removing it completely. I just think the item is so damn strong even now, except for the rare occations when you're playing The Dark Lady and your Charging Strikes with Harkon's on makes the ability cost ~450 mana. What I'm thinking is that Vindicator's "orb" comes with a cost of 15 mana, same with Arachnas but the cost is 12 for her.

Sure these heroes are ranged and they can abuse the mechanic of being ignored by creeps, which leads us to believe that the mana cost is a part of that feature's balance. I would however say that I think that Harkon's is very powerful even if it doesn't come into play untill after the laning phase and won't have the same effect as Arach/Vindi orb (in terms of lane control) at all.

So basically what I mean is that similar powerful "orbs" come at a cost, and even if the reasons for said costs might be different I think they have the "power" in common. So lowering the mana cost would be more according to my beliefs rather than removing the mana cost fully.

[powerofbr]

the item should be used to counter high amounts of armor late game... that item actually makes int carrys much more viable because of that, sad thing no competitive player thinks like that

once someone realize it everyone will be picking it as a first item and getting mad because harkons should be bought like 40+minutes into a game

[Ogrim]

Era put a ridiculous old school puppet master Harkons smackdown clinic on Tdm today.

Amount of damage puppet does with harkons/hellflower/satanic/genjuro and w.e other item he had to go with his post haste was plain ridiculous.

[Frostbiite]

i think the two main reasons that harkons should be picked up are
1) to give puppet/int carry heroes insane amounts of damage
and 2) to counter huge +armor strats (kotf, plague, etc. 30+ armor on team).

the reasons why this item are not picked up are:
1) Acolyte staff makes Sheepstick > Harkons in most cases
2) The buildup is pretty tough, but slightly less important
3) Agil heroes who need to counter -armor cant afford all the wasted states (no use for all the +int) and cant sustain the mana use.

Take a look at this game right here, http://honcast.com/video/2012/03/11/...-vs-tba-game-1

BxF has a huge tanky team, with tons of armor. FA cant do **** against them, and with a harkons blade she could skip over all the mana. The problem is agi carries cant pick up harkons, and even if tort could farm up for the acolyte staff, he would just get a sheepstick.

The main thing im deducing here is to make the item picked up more, it needs to be viable on carries trying to go around armor and/or needs to be less overshadowed by sheepstick. The best way to do this is to remove acolyte staff in the recipe, and replace it with another item.

[painkiller`]

Amount of damage puppet does with harkons/hellflower/satanic/genjuro and w.e other item he had to go with his post haste was plain ridiculous.

TIL: A farmed carry does damage.

OT: The fact remains that this item is only viable on and maybe , and no other hero. That's pretty stupid to me.

[Ripoff]

TIL: A farmed carry does damage.

OT: The fact remains that this item is only viable on and maybe , and no other hero. That's pretty stupid to me.

Just to be picky, add in repulsor aswell. And perhaps Revenant, and maybe even shadowblade.

Or in some extreme cases, rhapsody and hellbringer.

Just saying.

[changlingbob]

Also vindicator, in case you don't ignore their armour enough

[PzKw]

The item is viable when the other team stacks armour and not MA or immunity, or has a few ghost scepters, and you're a ranged carry...

Seriously.

[[eR]Ekamo]

The item is viable when the other team stacks armour and not MA or immunity, or has a few ghost scepters, and you're a ranged carry...

Seriously.

Please clarify what a ghost scepter is.

[too`smithie]

Please clarify what a ghost scepter is.

Void Talisman.

Ghost scepter is the item name in Dota.

[[eR]Ekamo]

Void Talisman.

Ghost scepter is the item name in Dota.

Just want to keep everyone on the same page. A lot of people in this forum probably never played Dota, me included.

[PlayeroJ]

This item was over-shadowed by old FWS as a contender for the orb slot for most heroes as well as life steal which the most notorius power house with harkons really needed to farm & survive, and once that got toned down shield breaker had the spot light after that little armor re-vamp they had a while back. That being said it works as a modifier for much more than intellect heroes,. Scout, TDL, Madman and many more all do great with it. Most carirries can gain heavily from this item end-game. Build up is a major bummer though, and I would protest to a change in that, but the recipe would need to come with an intellect bonus to at least mostly cover up lost mana from acolyte staff piece.

[Orchest]

If you do a cost:benefit analysis and throw in Void Tali it goes off the charts...

But if you throw in SH, it goes the other way...

[too`smithie]

Just want to keep everyone on the same page. A lot of people in this forum probably never played Dota, me included.

I agree, but just FYI

[FabryPerot]

If you do a cost:benefit analysis and throw in Void Tali it goes off the charts...

But if you throw in SH, it goes the other way...

I don't really like this logic.

People act like SH is some big counter to Harkon's, but it simply isn't the case.

People buy SH to prevent themselves from being stunned, not AUTO ATTACKED.

If you are forcing the enemy heroes/carries to activate SH just because you are autoing them, I'd say that's an advantage of Harkons, not a disadvantage.

[Orchest]

I don't really like this logic.

People act like SH is some big counter to Harkon's, but it simply isn't the case.

People buy SH to prevent themselves from being stunned, not AUTO ATTACKED.

If you are forcing the enemy heroes/carries to activate SH just because you are autoing them, I'd say that's an advantage of Harkons, not a disadvantage.

But if you treat SH as an inevitability on the highest priority targets it's a disadvantage to Harkons. It's a question of who has the initiative.

[[LsE]Hsssh]

It's a question of who has the initiative.

Thats probably most important question in this genre.

[Ogrim]

if draconis gets a harkons... will his ulti put out harkons damage on all targets hit by his auto... and if so, will each shot count as an individual harkons cast?

[Anakha]

counts as one cast, propagates to all 3 targets hit. it's good on him.