[2.5.10] Harkon's Blade

[[NU]Tomate]

OK, here’s the stats
Cost: 4775
+35 int
+27 dmg
+10 atk speed
+150% MR

Orb effect: Changes the attack to magic damage. Also reduces the magic armor of the target by 5? (pretty sure its 5, its just not on the website and am not in game as I write this. Cost 75 mana per attack.

The item is simply virtually never used. For an INT based hero, it would end up giving 62 damage, 10 atk speed, 150% MR…

Compared to the now infamous shield breaker:
Cost: 4600
+70 damage
-6 physical armor…

You can see that something is wrong in multiple aspects.
A: The build up of Harkon Blades is MUCH harder than shield breaker.
B: Shield breaker cost nothing to use.
C: it isn’t stat dependant for the full outcome.

For Harkon’s blade to see some action, 3 things much come true:
A: An int hero that really needs more DPS over more CC
B: Not being against a team stacked with + magic armor
C: Not having a natural carrier of a sol’s bulwark on your team to provide you with a ‘free’ -4 physical armor.

What this means is that Harkon’s competes with HellFlower (71DMG, 30 atk speed, a CC attached to it) and shield breaker and Totem (best disable on an item). The draw backs are that you need to activate / deactivate it due to the outrageous mana cost, you need to be careful about your attack speed as it can drain your mana extremely fast, magic damage output is often outdated late game that you might as well be better with – physical armor to help your teammates tear a carry up than – magic armor.

Overall, the item is a very mediocre, subpar item that is hard countered by a shrunken head, must be activated for unobvious reasons and cost an outrageous amount of mana for unobvious reason.

Please discuss, below is my own discussion of what the problem / possible solutions are:

Problem fix: The orb effect is active at all time, cost 0 mana, applies to single target click spells (think of how shield breaker works for Nomad, Drunken Master…) This pretty much helps every single target spell in the game, helps int carries that just all disappeared, reposition the item with its comparable morph attack items…

[[TECH]YawningAngel]

Approved.

[Anakha]

"Overall, the item is a very mediocre, subpar item that is hard countered by a shrunken head, must be activated for unobvious reasons and cost an outrageous amount of mana for unobvious reason."

It's also a super shieldbreaker that gives absurd amounts of effective damage. I don't think you understand quite how batshit insane this item potentially is.

[[IaF]Skyve]

"Overall, the item is a very mediocre, subpar item that is hard countered by a shrunken head, must be activated for unobvious reasons and cost an outrageous amount of mana for unobvious reason."

It's also a super shieldbreaker that gives absurd amounts of effective damage. I don't think you understand quite how batshit insane this item potentially is.

Exactly. Harkon's is basically the strongest lategame dps item - ignoring the enemies' armor an only getting reduced by magic armor makes a gigantic difference, especially lategame against most agi heroes and teams that stack armor (Plague, Keeper, Hammer).

@those people talking about armor:
Vestments are often sold on many heroes during the lategame. Sol's and RotT are usually existent on most teams, providing a total of +8 armor as an aura (RotT, Abyssal, Nome's don't stack).

Most heroes that you will need the bonus damage from Harkon's against will have items like Plated Graves, Barbed Armor or a high agi-growth. The situation where a hero you attack has low armor occurs usually against underfarmed support heroes - where the difference of Harkon's vs SB doesn't matter most of the time because your damage shoulde be easily enough anyways.

[Ogrim]

"Overall, the item is a very mediocre, subpar item that is hard countered by a shrunken head, must be activated for unobvious reasons and cost an outrageous amount of mana for unobvious reason."

It's also a super shieldbreaker that gives absurd amounts of effective damage. I don't think you understand quite how batshit insane this item potentially is.

I totally agree with you, even after he was nerfed into the ground puppet is still a monstrous beast with a harkons. But it doesn't fit the meta at all anymore. Due to the high mana cost, its almost always a last or second to last item pick up. Games just don't last that long in this meta.

Not to mention that with all the anti physical armor items out there currently, players don't build up their hero to support a harkons generally.

The one thing i don't like about harkons is that you have to basically gimp yourself all game by getting items with loads of mana/int/regen and ignore the safer picks like hotbl/sols etc and all the normal damage items to eventually be able to use it properly and pick it up. Every time i see someone going for a harkons they are almost forced to ignore survival items.

In that sense, i think something about it should be adressed.

[[PDNO]frtzarn]

Agreeing with Anakha here (as per usual). Harkons is one of the best lategame damage options, and lategame is is unquestionably better than SB (may need MacroHard to back me up with mathcraft here). SB is very good when people have low physical armor, but lategame people have 20+ physical armor, which harkons TOTALLY IGNORES, making it essentially true damage. Even with a shamans, harkon's still crushes.

It is a situational item and should remain situational, as I love the item but do not want to see it every game.

[lolb0t]

Agreeing with Anakha here (as per usual). Harkons is one of the best lategame damage options, and lategame is is unquestionably better than SB (may need MacroHard to back me up with mathcraft here). SB is very good when people have low physical armor, but lategame people have 20+ physical armor, which harkons TOTALLY IGNORES, making it essentially true damage. Even with a shamans, harkon's still crushes.

It is a situational item and should remain situational, as I love the item but do not want to see it every game.

there is no lategame any more. the average game goes on for about 30 minutes.


the 1st time i've seen a comp game go for over an hour in last 5 months was today in tdm vs lions. and even then nobody bothered with any late game items, even selling sheep sticks and buying behemoth heart for survivability against burst


this item needs to be tweaked to be made far far earlier in the game, since the meta game has progressed so much to quicker bursts and quicker tower pushing

[Orchest]

there is no lategame any more. the average game goes on for about 30 minutes.


the 1st time i've seen a comp game go for over an hour in last 5 months was today in tdm vs lions. and even then nobody bothered with any late game items, even selling sheep sticks and buying behemoth heart for survivability against burst


this item needs to be tweaked to be made far far earlier in the game, since the meta game has progressed so much to quicker bursts and quicker tower pushing

Check Hellbourne's inventories and armour stats in that game - no Shrunkens, I think a single MV, no one sitting on less than 20 armour, most heroes sitting at 25-35 armour with the PR buff.

And what was in Valk's inventory?

Shieldbreaker.

Now, far be it from me to accuse pro-players of making bad decisions, but Shieldbreaker against a team that has PR is already pretty questionable - keeping it lategame when for 2350 gold you could swap it for a Harkons, and trade 43dmg/-6 armour for straight up -30ish armour is ****ing insane (and we were consistantly looking at 3-4k hp heroes, so the EHP difference is a huge deal). Throw in two Ghost Scepters and it's a done deal.

It's also not like at this stage of the game you can just do the "I'll buy a 400 gold item to boost my MA out of the Really Bad Zone where armour coefficients are worst for damage taken..." because your slots are maxed out and you're trading a huge investment for it...

Basically it's incredibly strong within its niche... If anything, FWS is still the thing holding it back because superlategame FWS is still better on the whole, with the big exceptions of Ghost Scepters and pure damage output (as opposed to applied damage output, EHP and so on)... If there'd been a Harkons in that game around the time that the teamfight happened before HB top and Legion bot went (above the Kong pit) it could very well have gone differently - Valk survived most of the fight, but was outputting pitiful damage because her SB was useless - no other single item swap out could have had that impact...

[[GM]Cyber_Kun]

This item is important for countering heavy armor teams and other specific situations. It might not be common, but I would not call it weak or anything like that.

[[TLn]nom]

This item is important for countering heavy armor teams and other specific situations. It might not be common, but I would not call it weak or anything like that.

this nails it i think.

Harkon's will never be the kind of item that is "core" on a hero, unless it is changed drastically.

Situationally, it is absurdly strong. The problem is; most people don't even really consider it. They forget it's even on the table.

It's a huge DPS item, better than any other item including riftshards, in certain situations. These situations happen more often than people would think, but because nobody considers it or actually uses it, you have a huge amount of observation bias.

Here is how I would fix the situation:

Increase the damage on Harkon's from +27 to +28. This will remind people that the item does in fact actually exist when they check the changelog, and maybe some will try it and word will spread that it is totally usable given the correct situations.

I don't see why items have to be grouped in to the two categories of "buy every single game" and "never ever buy." Bad.

edit: also, don't see too much being discussed about how it's not just your future auto attacks that benefit from that -armor, it's all magic damage applied to that hero, making it VERY RELEVANT in team fights, actually much more valuable, as an orb, than shieldbreaker for this very reason. -armor has diminishing returns later in the game which ALL heroes naturally get via agility. magic armor cannot be gained except through items that specifically grant it.

in general mystic vest is the most people will have except for specifically built "tanky" heroes who have a headdress. subtracting a mystic vest just by auto attacking somebody is a HUGE, HUGE HUGE DEAL. i cannot even emphasize this enough. it's tagging them to take extra damage from ****ing nukes!!! the possibilities are much larger, and the stakes much higher, than people picture.

i think a lot of the reason people dislike it is psychological. it's hard to really see the benefits. it's an expensive item to buy that uses mana to auto attack, and the extra damage potentially done to a target over the course of a teamfight with nukes flying around isn't neatly displayed on the screen. it would have to be calculated, and it becomes far more nuanced than just auto attack situations.

i really don't think most people truly understand, even actual professionals, just how much damage harkon's can really dish out, in an actual, practical, teamfight situation.

for instance: let's say a given hero has mystic vest. that means they have what, 10.5 magic armor.

so a pyro ult would deal 452 damage. after being tagged with harkon's, the pyro ult does 714 damage. a fairly large difference i must say, and the key here is that pyro doesn't have to be the one to tag somebody with the orb. it can be anybody. it could be applied to numerous people before aoe is cast. it's a strong orb and if the person using it already has a nice auto attack, it's just that much nicer.

i'm not saying it's likely to be some game-breaking secret item that people should buy all the time and blah blah, just that i feel it has a lot more potential than people give it credit for. i really truly feel most people, even myself included at times, don't even remember that it exists.

[`rnz`]

Here is how I would fix the situation:

Increase the damage on Harkon's from +27 to +28. This will remind people that the item does in fact actually exist when they check the changelog,

^ lol'd

[Deva]

^Same as Cyber_Kun

The item is totally viable when countering heavy armor teams, or as a last item in late game when the vestments on the opponents are gone and the bkb's have low charges. Only thing I would like to see is a decrease of the manacost per attack, maybe 60 instead of 75? Else the item is fine (even for Agility carries)

[skeloperch]

Only thing it really needs is a reduction on the mana cost. I don't wanna pay 75 mana for that orb when I could have FWS (which is better in almost every single conceivable way, seeing as how it allows you to kite some to hell and back). I think it needs an average damage of 3::1 mana damage ratio the entire game for it to be worthwhile, as it does have an incredibly niche use, competes with other modifiers, and is hard as hell to build up, requiring a hefty 2.7k to be dropped to buy it.

[Lethe]

The item is fine. But late-game high dps heroes are obsolete. Which makes Harkon's even rarer than it was before.

[[DDDz]Devourawr]

I'm going against the current here and in going to say its UP. With the super easy Shieldbreaker, and Bulwark, you can have minus 10 armour on a target 20 minutes into the game, provided they are picked up by two different heroes on the same team.

With every single hero ever having Vestments as a core item, Harkons just can't deal enough for the horrific price tag attatched and the ferocious mana costs per attack. You basically have to have a Nullstone/Axe/Totem alongside this item in order to actually use it effectively.

Agreeing with what someone said above me, S2 is still trying to for a tankier, early type of carry metagame, meaning that by the time you have this item the opposing teams Kraken/Ra/Tremble/Zephyr is just going to be too powerful to stop. Games end at 30 minutes but are essentially over 15 minutes into the game.

[LordTroll]

The item itself is awesome. However, the only gripe I have with it is the high cost on each attack, it's quite taxing on agility carries (which it can work great on, don't be silly and say it's only potentially good on ints).

Though at the same time it needs to have some cost, because - magic armor is much stronger than - armor lategame. So, I'd propose lowering it from 75 to 35-40 mana per attack. Still will be felt, won't allow carries to farm with it, but they'll also be allowed to use their skills without being afraid of running dry fast (think The Dark Lady).

[[TECH]YawningAngel]

I didn't realise the fact that this item makes you do a metric shitton of damage was in question. Can we discuss what's interesting, which is why nobody gets it?

[LordTroll]

I didn't realise the fact that this item makes you do a metric shitton of damage was in question. Can we discuss what's interesting, which is why nobody gets it?

For me, the main issue is having too high a mana cost per attack. Halve it, and it will certainly be considered more. I'm not sure if people realize how a carry doing 3 attacks in 2 seconds will drain his mana completely if he's moderately dependant on activation of skills as well.

Int is an important stat on it because it provides you with much needed mana pool...

[[IaF]Skyve]

For me, the main issue is having too high a mana cost per attack. Halve it, and it will certainly be considered more. I'm not sure if people realize how a carry doing 3 attacks in 2 seconds will drain his mana completely if he's moderately dependant on activation of skills as well.

Int is an important stat on it because it provides you with much needed mana pool...

Harkon's gives 35 int which is 455 Mana, which is 9 attacks with Harkon's on.
Ignoring the regen or the fact that most carry abilities have costs low enough to consume at best 50% of their manapool mid to lategame, just the 9 attacks with Harkon's would often be enough to kill a significant enemy hero.

[Anakha]

Sure. Nobody gets it, because the HoN competitive scene for the most part is a cesspool of uncreative circlejerkers that are unable to think outside of the box or think critically about item acquisitions (see: tdm vs lions)
They are mostly led like sheep by the few innovators within the scene, which the sheep then follow blindly since they all play against each other constantly and thus have trouble developing any kind of distinctly different playstyle, since they all get sucked into trying to copy the "best" strat at any given time.

Or it just has an extremely difficult buildup with an Acolyte Staff and an overall INT primary, which makes it undesirable for most people as a stat stick.