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How did that work out for them?Originally Posted by Brannock
Pestilence needs to be a bit tanky before he can effectively blink initiate in pubs. He needs to go helm/vestments at least before blink. Pubs dont follow up on initiation immediately meaning a blink only pest will die 9/10 times he blinks in to stun. This is why people don't like playing him and why he fails a lot of the time in pubs. Most of the time if you try and explain this people start screaming about how pest needs to go blink first and rage out.....
He be used effectively in comp games with an early blink because initiation is immediately followed by teammates jumping in. You can afford to go straight for blink if you know you wont be taking a barrage of nukes following your initiation because your teammates are lagging.
TLDR - If people would build pest a bit tanky before blink they would like him more.
I can't agree with this honestly.
There are several heroes in the game that basicly "PK as close to as many heroes as possible" to start a team fight and throw out a stun of sorts. The problem for pesti is the following:
1- He is a initiator first an foremost, but other heroes can do the same job with less farm, or get the equal amount of farm and do it better. Lego or moraxus for example, are going to be able to be stronger when they get that pk initiation at around 15-20 minutes.
2- Other heroes don't necessarily need the shrunken head to perform the pk in and stun, but pesti really needs it at this point in the meta game. Again this goes to the issue of other heroes doing his job easier or better.
3- when you pick pesti on a comp team, you almost always except too much or too little from him and it hurts the team. This is a big one as far as i'm concerned. Pesti is either picked simply for the pk stun, and then becomes too weak or takes farm away etc (not talking about steamroll games), or pesti is expected not only to initiate and gank, but is also expected to perform a semi-carry role which he is more than capable of. Thing is he is not the best farmer, and require a lot of time to turn himself into the dangerous hero he can be. At this point, there are many other heroes that can farm so much faster than him and perform any of the jobs he is capable of doing just as good if not better, that picking pesti seems to put a strain on the rest of your team, rather than making your team strong. Comp teams that pick him end up bending over backwards just to make the pesti viable all game long.
throw in the kongor related nerf to his ulti combined with the many other forms of lowering armor in the game now and the lack of invis heroes in comp play, and he just ends up being a hero that you look at and say "pesti would be good, but wait this other hero would be better" almost every time. I don't think i'm wrong on that...
Last edited by Ogrim; 03-01-2012 at 09:28 PM.
Moreaxus is far weaker initiator. Radius in his stun makes it more pebbels like than magmus, while pestilence got no problems to stun 3 or more targets. Valid argument could be that Moreaxus after stun can provide some aoe burst with his ultimate, but usually that dmg is very low since he its easy to drop his ultimate with 1-2 autoattacks. At the same time pesti stun got 50% lower cd.
Beside initiation moreaxe have very small to offer while pestilence got very good dps thx to stats/ultimate/items that you build on him, cant be kitted because of flight, and he can spam his bash making enemy carry life misserable.
Pesti doesnt need sh to pk and stun as well. The only reason why pesti is making a sh is because other heroes after initiation are either useless or just die(mag/hammer/moreaxe/behe), while pestilence can still perform as a semi/hard carry and offer a lot to his team.
1. Cant get the "or takes farm away" part
2. Pesti is never picked only for pk stun as hes very good carry hero
3. Only thing that pesti needs to become dangerous is 1 sh, or sb/bulwark. Yes hes not the best farmer but 350 gpm on him > 450 gpm on ra/zephyr
4. How picking pesti can be a strain on the rest of team if hes moderatly usefull during lanning phase and becomes very dangerous around lvl 11 ?
5. Most of games that i watched with pesti was about his team winning early-mid (big part of it was always pestilence performance) and than either finishing the win or starting to throw by stupid plays (farewall old Dirty Minds)
6. Pesti is viable during whole game beacuse of his skillset. Team doesnt need to force the game in a way pestilence needs, he can adapt to almost any situation since he is counter to int nukers/strenght tanks/and agi carrys + offer great initiation tool.
your missing the point. If moraxus pk's in with his ulti up he can survive without other items early game easily between his shield and axe throws.
Presti is going to pk in early without survival items cause he rushed the pk, stun, ulti someone, and they auto attack at best and hopefully not die. You are entitled to your opinion but i disagree with it it early game. Late game pest is obviously the stronger initiator, but again a big problem with pesti is how difficult it is to get high gpm with him.
I disagree with most of your points because you are viewing it one way and I think i am viewing it in a different way that is more realistic.
This hero has a 2.5 second AOE stun with a cooldown of 8 SECONDS? wait.. what?
i play this guy all the time, I know im squishy when i bink in so I stun, ult someone, then basically back out. Then 5 seconds later I stun someone again.
Pestilence is not foremost an initiator, kids. Portal Key allows him to 'initiate', but you never realistically want him doing that except as a followup, same as Maliken.
Let me spell it out plain for you
Angry people complain about the things I do
I'm not changing direction, I'm stepping my game up
Maintaining my name, the same way I came up.
Truth is, I thought it mattered
I thought that music mattered.
But does it? Bollocks!
Not compared to how people matter.
As one said before because of the very long 2.5s stun, Pesti can easily blink in, stun and than move back (because of his 520 movement speed with steamboots) and come back to fight when his team emerge.
What an absolute waste. All that does is give them advance warning that you're around, as well as the ability to actually decimate you. If they even space out remotely, you're overexposed, and they will kill you. Or even worse for you, they stun you, run back and you've lost your opportunity completely. 2.5sec is not a "very long stun".
Tempest's ultimate is a "very long stun", and even that would be stupid to do in that situation. Stuns are only as valuable as the damage differential they allow you to inflict.
Let me spell it out plain for you
Angry people complain about the things I do
I'm not changing direction, I'm stepping my game up
Maintaining my name, the same way I came up.
Truth is, I thought it mattered
I thought that music mattered.
But does it? Bollocks!
Not compared to how people matter.
First of all: tempest isnt a stun but easy to cancel channeling making it last a lot shorter than a 2.5s stun in most scenarios.
Second: stunning opponents and moving back lets your team cast their nukes and get easy pickup than follow up or land some skills on important enemy hero and than focus opponents attention letting you wait a moment so that you can come back when some disables/burst was already used. Yes it may sound strange but thats very valid strategy since pestilence can dish out tones of physical dmg when not stunned.
Btw show me longer duration stun with resonably big radius Oo
Anyway thats off topic, the fact is that pesti can be a good initiatior(never said best, just good) and because of how other prestilence skills look like, even after "wasting" 2k gold on pk he can still be a verry viable carry hero if build properly.
Strong and versitile hero but not broken like some s2 creations because of his lack of efficient aoe farming tool. I higly doubt that any changes should be made to him, maybe beside some pwnage alt avatar addon, like Flaming Pestilence ?!?#?*!# (that would be manlly)
If your team is able to cast their nukes (read: chain stuns), then why the **** would you move away? You'd HIT them to put in more damage. If you're in a bad position where you could die, then unless your team has Portal Keys as well, you're well out of position.
You're misrepresenting your circumstances horrifically. Tempest's ultimate IS a stun, whether it is channelling or not is irrelevant. Tempest's ultimate IS a very long stun relative to Pestilence's, being near twice the duration at any point and whatnot. Exaggeration is bad, mk?
Let me spell it out plain for you
Angry people complain about the things I do
I'm not changing direction, I'm stepping my game up
Maintaining my name, the same way I came up.
Truth is, I thought it mattered
I thought that music mattered.
But does it? Bollocks!
Not compared to how people matter.
The fact that Pestilence is now considered underpowered speaks volumes about the ever decaying balance of this game.
Kinda off topic but pestilence needs a intelligence buff imo. Even late game he needs some source mana regen for his stun. 15 base intel with 1.5 gain. How about 20 intel with 2.0 gain like lord?
Then you would need to increase the mana-cost for his stun, which is relativly low for its effectivness.
Gooby pls...
Maybe if he get his bash likes rampage one (with cd not by % or maybe like cronos) we will see him more often... But Im not sure if it will be an exaggerated buff
I think we see him enough to say that he's fine.
Stats are like women in bikinis, they are interesting to look at however they don't show you everything.
Am sorry, I stopped there... Pestilence stunning 3 or more people with his stun?
Seriously? When did that happen? That just never happen in a game where you don't face 5 melees all smacking an armadon.
This happens all the time, it is not uncommon at any level of play. Well, if you factor in PK into the equation, which is a given.
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i think the core issue with pesti going form perfectly balanced to underpowered imho, is power creep in the forum of farming potential.
Pestie just takes to long to get the items he needs to be as effective as other heroes. Thats just how i feel about it. You basically have to treat him like a hard carry when you play with him in terms of providing him farm.
Especially true for the laning phase but also in general. The bad thing is, come midgame he doesn't have the luxury to sit in one lane to farm which often leads to him rushing the Portal Key as soon as possible and neglecting pretty much all forms of survivability.
Now I think some form of powercreep was necessary to move the game towards the more entertaining and active game like it is now, arguably maybe too much, but the powercreep has to stop eventually and the heroes left behind need to be brought up to speed so to say.
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