[2.5.9] Pestilence

[foxmindedguy]

The hero is almost never seen in the competitive scene solely because there are other more safer heroes out there. Sure Pestilence is a highly mobile hero, who gets relevantly tanky and dishes out good sustained damage, but the hero really does not have much going for him at the moment.

Simply put: heroes like Kraken, Amun RA and even Cthuluphant provide more utility along with safer way to reach an effective peak.

I mean everyone admits that a stun that deals only 200 physical damage at max level really is a joke now a days. Considering other heroes deal average nuke is around 280-300.

I am aware of the fact that his ultimate reduces armor, which makes his W hit harder than 200, but really it is an ultimate for a reason.

Another major issue with Pestilence is the purge-ability and disjoint-ability of the ultimate. Invisible-reliant heroes like Magmus (W), Valkyrie (E), Fayde (R), Nomad (E) can simply disjoint the swarms by activating the skill mentioned in brackets with them before the swarms reach them. Secondly, other heroes that typically do get Shroud (say Arachna) can purge his ultimate off by simply pushing W.

Therefore, in my personal opinion, I think for Pestilence to get back on the scene, it is imperative to increase the damage on impale. And make his swarms unable to be disjointed. Purge-ability should remain on it.

Additionally the 10% increased damage taken should be removed all together. Other heroes like Pandamonium have had their drawbacks removed, it is time the former servant of Moon Queen get the same treatment.

What say you?

EDIT#1: One of the sentences was incomplete.
EDIT#2: I love Ekamo for realz. Dunno why I got angry at him for a minor overlook . Anyway put a link on the most confusing line in this post, to better demonstrate what I wanted to say.

[[TECH]YawningAngel]

Approved.

[Brannock]

Accurate assessment, inaccurate premises and conclusions.

Pestilence was formerly the paragon of balance (though still not picked that often). The game has moved past him. This isn't a good thing, and neither is buffing Pestilence to match the current level of power creep.

Nerf other heroes back down to Pestilence's level. Note that this won't make the game less fun: playing an aggressive Pestilence is still one of the most fun experiences in this game, same as 2 years ago.

[NakedMouse]

Accurate assessment, inaccurate premises and conclusions.

Pestilence was formerly the paragon of balance (though still not picked that often). The game has moved past him. This isn't a good thing, and neither is buffing Pestilence to match the current level of power creep.

Nerf other heroes back down to Pestilence's level. Note that this won't make the game less fun: playing an aggressive Pestilence is still one of the most fun experiences in this game, same as 2 years ago.

Well this gets to the heart of it though, doesn't it? Most people seem to agree that we've seen a major power creep go on since retail release, and while it has been slow, it is now so pervasive that it would undoubtedly be easier to buff underpowered heroes up to the current level we're at (however you want to define it). Powercreep is almost a natural process because its easy to say "X hero is UP: lets buff him". Nerfing is more difficult unless a hero is drastically OP. However, I think, and again most people seem to agree, that we shouldn't just embrace powercreep this way; we should strive to return the games balance to the point it was at before.

The problem with this is that I haven't seen a willingness on S2's part to make the sweeping nerfs that would be required to do this sort of thing. I'm not sure I blame them. It's gotten bad enough that if what needs to be done in order to fix it were actually done, the game would be in a sort of "balance upheaval" for a while...and that is probably not an attractive option for S2. It would take multiple balance patches and major changes to a lot of heroes. S2 is more comfortable with smaller adjustments. In general, that's the right idea. Balance is a fine art, easy to get wrong. If you're sculpting a statue, you use a chisel, not a jackhammer. Right now though, the chisel may not quite be enough to do what I think needs to be done.

I think we should avoid buffing Pestilence. Sure he's not picked a lot competitively, but he's still a great hero. For now, I think we should keep him as is to be a monument for appropriate balance.

[LordTroll]

I concur with your suggestions.

250 damage on max level stun and the code to make the ult undisjointable like WS and Pyro's ult is imperative to bring him back into the game.

[[RC2W]Omega]

I'm surprised Fox would defend pestilence. Maybe festilence, but pestilence?

Joking aside: Pestilence's dota counterpart (Slardar) was an absolute powerhouse, and pestilence used to be the same here.

Could we at least go the route of minor changes, and bring pestilence into line with slardar (I know that this is not generally an acceptable solution) in terms of his ultimate.


Fox has it right, stop the disjoint on pest's ult. It was an instant application in a similar game (which also had many fewer disjoints), therefore it could not be dodged.

[Mediocre]

I personally think Pestilence is fine.

Great stun on short cool-down, great mobility, %-based bash (loads better than chronos) and a ultimate that is on the edge of being imbalanced (-15 armor, true vision, 10 sec cooldown).

He might have suffered some from power-creep, but I just think teams needs to rediscover him again.

If any buff were to be made, I would rescale his sprint to something along the lines of slardar: 20/27/33/40%, although slardar takes 15% extra dmg instead of 10%...

But as I said, I dont really think he needs it.

EDIT: I dont see any harm of making his ulti instant applied tho.

[[WnK]LuckyStrike`]

powercreep, used to be one of the best heroes in game, saw it a lot in the old days, even in dota, now he is rarely picked :S

[[BOOS]MarkMasters]

I don;t think he is bad either, 1 of the best stuns ingame (since it slows after the stun duration as well). pest is just like pred or something, with some farm he is unstopable....sure there are some heroes these days that roflpwn much, but a good pestilence will still pwn a good ra

[[eR]Ekamo]

EDIT:
I'm an ass, and a lazy one at that.

For what people who is wondering what the fuzz was about:

I first closed the thread because I assumed Lethe's initial statement was true. Re-opened per foxminded's request, after he proved me wrong with his video.

I deleted all the posts related to the topic so we can avoid further discussion about the current mechanics of it.

impactstealth="true"

plz don't make stuff up.

What REALLY bugs me and why I was so sure I was right, I knew this change had taken place.

0.1.28:
Swarm reveals target even if it goes invisible before the projectile impacts.

Zz obligated to post now.

The issue with swarm was mentioned a long time ago, and it should have been addressed as such:

0.1.28:
Swarm reveals target even if it goes invisible before the projectile impacts.

so regardless of whether that is the case or not now, this may be an oversight related to a bug. Anyway gj to fox for being as tenacious as he was.

0.1.28:
Swarm reveals target even if it goes invisible before the projectile impacts

Well, this is true for heroes like Madman, Scout, Revenant, Keeper, Night Hound and even Valkyrie (if she doesn't leap).

The issue is that other invisible spells have built-in disjoint attached to them. Magmus (W), Fayde (R), Nomad (E) are some examples. Valkyrie R does not have a disjoint but she can simply push E when she sees the slow projectile of swarms approaching her.

ah. Silly oversight on my part. I thought they coded it to specifically override disjoint.

The Answer:

http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/sh...d.php?t=390549

EDIT # 2:
Adding a poll.

[[S2]ElementUser]

Fox has it right, stop the disjoint on pest's ult. It was an instant application in a similar game (which also had many fewer disjoints), therefore it could not be dodged.

It could easily be done.

[Lethe]

W also has an 8 sec cooldown and a slow afterwards to boost. That is what makes it a threat. Even in the nerfed state, chalice still solves Pest's problem, where in dota Slardar doesn't have this luxury, and as such has very high mana management issues. I cannot agree with your argument here. The damage on W is not the selling point.

JoshP also recommended removing the damage penalty on Q, and that is something I am very, very against. Such a high degree of mobility has to come with a price. In fact, that's the whole reason Slardar had his sprint rebalanced a 2nd time.

Summary:
Q: I'm fine with a rebalance, but would not sign off on a straight buff.
W: Disagree.
E: There is a cd on this skill which doesn't need to be there, period.

[[ScBr]MadPsycho]

For a stun that deals 200 physical damage but a magical stun, I've also felt that Impale was underwhelming. Making the stun for impale physical would be a nice change that would allow pestilence to better fill that physical damage niche.

[GregerMoek]

Mind you, he still fills a Physical Damage niche and he's good at it, that's why we've seen him on occation with moderate to decent success.

Making his stun physical would be a wicked buff as he already has a bash that is physical in effect and the skill is already good with such a short cooldown.

[[ScBr]MadPsycho]

Yes, I realize that it would be a substantial buff, in that it would go through Shrunken Head and other magic immune skills. It would be dangerous to make such a change though on a hero that has the potential to carry. The cooldown on his passive really reduced his ability to carry though.

[[RCT]Reldnahc]

The standards of the older days haven't received a balance change in months, yet they are falling off. The problem isn't with the heroes themselves, but the massive power creep.

I'm a much bigger fan of the time when having a drawback on a skill wasn't considered a hero potential killing aspect. When using a skill took careful planning rather than mash it everytime it is off cooldown with no regards whatsoever.

Old mechanics like high mana costs, high cooldowns, negative side effects, and others used to make skill design strong are no longer found in a lot of newer heroes being pumped out. I think a lot of Buro's designs are fantastic because they take into account these aspects and are considered underpowered often times. Some other designs are very parasitic to the health of the game.

Just my musings. Personally I would rather see others get nerfed than Pesti buffed because I feel that if Pesti is buffed, it will truly mean that this game is not what it once was.

[Archernar]

I agree, a minor buff to Pest is fine.

Firstly: I remember the passive stun to be magical. Was that changed or do people tell wrong things here?

Secondly: Q bringing such high mobility 'should have a price' --> look at Aluna, Wildsoul... Wildsoul was buffed, having his W instant. Still, i think the 10% more dmg shouldn't be removed, drawbacks are really rare nowadays in the game.

The buff on the Ult making it undodgeable wouldn't be such a big buff. I really think that would be a nice thing, since purging it still remains as an option and there are enough possibilities to purge it easily. His W could be 250 dmg, would synergize with the ult and would still be less than 300magic damage which is pretty often seen on other heroes.

Overall Pesti is a hero i really like and played successfully often, he can devastate any agi very easily if he goes lvl 11 early but with an elec or anyone with nullfire, his ult becomes rather useless. So just a little buff doesn't seem out of place, but not a big one since he can be powerful enough even now.

[rancewong]

The standards of the older days haven't received a balance change in months, yet they are falling off. The problem isn't with the heroes themselves, but the massive power creep.

I'm a much bigger fan of the time when having a drawback on a skill wasn't considered a hero potential killing aspect. When using a skill took careful planning rather than mash it everytime it is off cooldown with no regards whatsoever.

Old mechanics like high mana costs, high cooldowns, negative side effects, and others used to make skill design strong are no longer found in a lot of newer heroes being pumped out. I think a lot of Buro's designs are fantastic because they take into account these aspects and are considered underpowered often times. Some other designs are very parasitic to the health of the game.

Just my musings. Personally I would rather see others get nerfed than Pesti buffed because I feel that if Pesti is buffed, it will truly mean that this game is not what it once was.

^ This
Power creep + hero design problem not Pesti. He's fine.

[TRYTROUSERS]

lets buff a hero thats already retarded because s2 won't balance kraken or make ra or zephyr hard to play. i always thought his ultimate was too much, it's basically "i hit a button so your carry isnt allowed to play"- the only difference is now kraken has an ult that does the same thing to multiple people, and essentially roots them in place.

[Qweret]

The hero is almost never seen in the competitive scene solely because there are other more safer heroes out there. Sure Pestilence is a highly mobile hero, who gets relevantly tanky and dishes out good sustained damage, but the hero really does not have much going for him at the moment.

Did you just said what great positive aspects he has, and then say that he has not much?


Anyway, he is not the Burst Damage Hero, and so he has a harder time when farming, but from midgame on, he is a threat to those Heroes you mentioned(Zephyr,Ra,Kraken). Especially Ra gets hit hard by the -Armor.

He is an initiator and also a Carry, together with a Ganker and Anti-Carry.
He has Damage(not burst, but he has it with his ultimate), he has increasing movespeed, he has a physical nuke with magical stun with inbuilt slow and he has a Bash that is incredibly strong when getting some attackspeed.

No no, don't buff him and make this Killer-Hero a Burst-Killler-Killer-Hero.