Team Dependency

[[TRFL]ghoulverin]

am i the only one in the balancing section that thinks that RA is not op ? not even close to op? i cant even remember the last time i lost to a RA. he is uber squishy in the laning phase and can't kill if u are carefull + any heal lineup will instantly destroy him if mathed against him (dual ra+supp vs ds,jera,nymph+carry/tank , heal will always destroy ra.) Then u say OMG he can farm so fast omg! yeah if u destroy him early game he will spend half the mid game farming = too late cuz u already got a team with shieldbreaker/puzzlebox/purge to destroy him. Hmm.. oh wait he RUNS FAST. oh wait u can cc him. but he has 2 lives. too bad u cant manadrain him.. oh wait.. i mean seriously why so much fuss? he cant win a solo at mid, a decent dual will win his dual, if he goes forest u can gank him there easy since he is usually with 20% hp .. Why so much hate on ra? i dont even..

[[USA]HairyPanis]

He's not imbalanced so much as he is retardedly easy to pick up and stomp with.

He is low risk/high reward in disorganized pub games.

He epitomizes everything wrong with HoN and S2's design philosophy.

[foxmindedguy]

What really saddens me is that S2 did go ahead and nerf Soulstealer, Flint, Puppet etc because they were considered strong. But from day one, it is undisputedly known that Valkyrie (and well, Silhouette too) is the epitome of imbalanced design. Yet Valkyrie sits on her imbalanced throne (while Silhouette receives some minor nerfs).

[PowerBro]

Valk is OP but they do not dare touch her since most heroes they touched just disappeared...

Silhouette, with what I still consider a minor nerf, went from first pick to ignore. Same thing with Soul Stealer and Puppet.

I mean, I can't even remember the last time I saw a puppet pick.

[painkiller`]

Silhouette, with what I still consider a minor nerf, went from first pick to ignore. Same thing with Soul Stealer and Puppet.

I mean, I can't even remember the last time I saw a puppet pick.

is still the hardest ranged carry. Given team support and decent amount of time to farm, she can slice through most agi carries. The problem is that the current meta doesn't favour carries without survivability. Hence, no etc..

Very different problem (I don't think it's a problem though) to what this thread is about.

[Irysa]

Sil still has survivability options, its just not as good as Valk's.

Her W pull does depend heavily on positioning and her R swap is more of an offensive tool, you can throw out the Illusion and run it back as you go in to force a fight and have the escape but its not really as usable defensively except in 1v1 situations (where typically if they didn't kill you in time for that anyway your W should suffice)

Unlike Valk she can't just mash E the instant some enemy approaches your personal space though!

[skeloperch]

Ra deserves 80% of the whine, he's the epitome of every single ****ing thing wrong with this game.

That's not Valkyrie. Ra is to Double Team as Valkyrie is to Stealth Rocks, in pokemon terms at least. Everyone whines about how unfair Double Team (Ra) is, yet they are fine with Stealth Rocks, since you can counter stealth rocks (only 2 moves in game do this). Then they go to say that Double Team is hard and annoying to counter, when there are a high (32) amount of counters to the move. Yes, it's annoying to have to pack a counter, but everyone already packs a counter to Stealth Rock, even though Stealth Rock's counter is a 40 base power normal type move, and some of Double Team's counters can reach 80 base power. It's all about perspective (and straw mannin' this **** up).

[[GM]Cyber_Kun]

That's not Valkyrie. Ra is to Double Team as Valkyrie is to Stealth Rocks, in pokemon terms at least. Everyone whines about how unfair Double Team (Ra) is, yet they are fine with Stealth Rocks, since you can counter stealth rocks (only 2 moves in game do this). Then they go to say that Double Team is hard and annoying to counter, when there are a high (32) amount of counters to the move. Yes, it's annoying to have to pack a counter, but everyone already packs a counter to Stealth Rock, even though Stealth Rock's counter is a 40 base power normal type move, and some of Double Team's counters can reach 80 base power. It's all about perspective (and straw mannin' this **** up).

Bro, I have defended you in most cases but this is stupid and you should feel shame. Ra can be countered, but that is not the bloody point. He is everything bad about this game.

Low cooldown spam skills with no thinking behind
Skills that have no real noticeable cost making him stupid
Linear playstyle for the stupids
AoE Tank Magic Damage that scales by getting more tank
Flashfarming to a stupid degree

[skeloperch]

Bro, I have defended you in most cases but this is stupid and you should feel shame. Ra can be countered, but that is not the bloody point. He is everything bad about this game.

Low cooldown spam skills with no thinking behind
Skills that have no real noticeable cost making him stupid
Linear playstyle for the stupids
AoE Tank Magic Damage that scales by getting more tank
Flashfarming to a stupid degree

Ra isn't everything wrong with the game, which I firmly defend. He is, however, one of the biggest offenders. I compared Ra to double team and Valk to Stealth Rocks because they are BOTH problems. My point, however, is that people have gotten used to countering stealth rocks, whereas no one wants to have to counter Double Team. Same thing with Valk and Ra. People have gotten used to countering Valkyrie, so she isn't seen as a 'problem', whereas Ra is under intense scrutiny. Again, I'm not saying he isn't a problem, I'm saying he isn't the only problem, and not the worst one at that. Lesser of two evils and all that ****.

TL;DR: I'm not saying Ra isn't dumb, I'm just saying he's less dumb than Valkyrie.

[[TRFL]ghoulverin]

Low cooldown spam skills with no thinking behind
Skills that have no real noticeable cost making him stupid
Linear playstyle for the stupids
AoE Tank Magic Damage that scales by getting more tank
Flashfarming to a stupid degree

What i dont get is that 0 cost rant. it costs life. a lot of life. u can capitalise on it in mid-late PLUS in early its so easy to kill him. The truth is he cant spam these so called no cost spells unless he has at LEAST a hotbl. getting a hotbl isnt THAT easy if u play correctly and dont let him farm + when he gets it later its too late to be of any true impact. He isnt what's wrong with HoN. Midas is what's wrong with hon.

And about all u whiners about valk. all i can say is Wretched Hag and Bubbles.

[Irysa]

That's not Valkyrie. Ra is to Double Team as Valkyrie is to Stealth Rocks, in pokemon terms at least. Everyone whines about how unfair Double Team (Ra) is, yet they are fine with Stealth Rocks, since you can counter stealth rocks (only 2 moves in game do this). Then they go to say that Double Team is hard and annoying to counter, when there are a high (32) amount of counters to the move. Yes, it's annoying to have to pack a counter, but everyone already packs a counter to Stealth Rock, even though Stealth Rock's counter is a 40 base power normal type move, and some of Double Team's counters can reach 80 base power. It's all about perspective (and straw mannin' this **** up).

Lol do you hate Sleep Clause too? Whilst I don't agree with many of Smogon's rules, Pokemon isn't really balanced or designed for proper competitive play so its kinda necessary to have those kind of rules. I mean, you have like 20 ice moves to "counter" Rayquaza right, so its fair to have it in non uber play? The distribution of Stealth Rock and who can use it effectively compared to Double Team is just whack anyway.
Stealth Rock IS less dumb than double team.

(On that note...I wish they'd introduce a Weather Clause, because I quit playing in Gen V because of Politoed and Ninetails. :\)

[skeloperch]

Lol do you hate Sleep Clause too? Whilst I don't agree with many of Smogon's rules, Pokemon isn't really balanced or designed for proper competitive play so its kinda necessary to have those kind of rules. I mean, you have like 20 ice moves to "counter" Rayquaza right, so its fair to have it in non uber play? The distribution of Stealth Rock and who can use it effectively compared to Double Team is just whack anyway.
Stealth Rock IS less dumb than double team.

(On that note...I wish they'd introduce a Weather Clause, because I quit playing in Gen V because of Politoed and Ninetails. :\)

Hail master race here, Sunny Day, Rain Dance, and Sandstorm are for losers.

I don't think Stealth Rock is less dumb. Literally only 2 moves in the entire game counter it, when you can use Aura Sphere/Faint Attack/something that isn't fireblast to hit them. You can use defog, haze, sweet scent, flame body, and etc. to counter it as well, while you only have double team and defog to counter sneaky stones over there. Also, Stealth Rock single handedly dropped Ninjask from high OU to low RU/NU. That's 2/3 tiers right there. I have never seen a single move drop pokemon so many tiers by being put into the game. Still standing by my point that both are dumb, but one shouldn't be scrutinized/banned without the other. Really, what good has Stealth Rock done besides killing Charizard off from any sort of competitive play?

Also, I think Sleep Clause is kinda dumb this gen. I mean, 1st turn wakeups are really common now, and Natural Cure/Shed Skin/Lum Berry/Snore are actually kinda common. Sleep Clause just makes Sleep the worst status effect.

Oh, and on the subject of Rayquaza: Every legendary has a weakness, but that doesn't stop Rayquaza from ripping into the anuses of all of those Kyogre's/Groudon's in Ubers, and it doesn't stop him from having one of the highest BST's in game. Just because he quad weak to ice doesn't negate him from being uber. I mean, Garchomp is quad weak to ice, and he's in uber.

But I digress. Pokemon has more similarities to HoN that most would think. You just have to be willing to straw man hard enough to see them.

[[GnJA]Good_Apollo]

As more and more heroes are being added to the HON roster, team dependency is slowly being erased from the game. Most new heroes (including some rework of old heroes) can fill a plethora of roles simultaneously. For instance, carries like Flint, Gemini, Drunken Master can gank effectively (majorly reducing the need for pure ganker in a team that fills no other purpose than keeping the enemy down).

Additionally tanks like Amun RA, Ctuluphant and Kraken not only provide insane crowd-control for their teams but actually dish out decent damages in burst form. Once again, minimizing the demand for non-hybrid heroes in HON.

The game is slowly strafing away from team dependency towards hybrid heroes who can easily perform and excel at many tasks simultaneously. Heroes like Flux, Soul Stealer, Soul Reaper etc are seeing less and less play, and for a good reason too. What they provide to a team is far less than what other hybrids can provide.

The main question is: Where does the community and the developers want to take HON from here?

Do they want to rework the current overshadowed heroes into filling more roles than one effectively? Or do they want to revisit all the new hybrids and make them more team dependent?

My personal preference is to restrict heroes to perform one role effectively. Making the game more team oriented and requiring true strategy in drafting, rather than picking hybrid heroes willy-nilly to achieve the common goal.

I am aware that a lot of work would be required in order to achieve this approach of balance, a lot of heroes would need to be revisited. Hell, even the game might become a little bland, but in the end when you could pick any hero in a line-up without dampening the odds of winning against the opponent, HON would really have accomplished a great feat.

These are all just my opinions though, what do you guys think about the question of the day: Should HON have more hybrids or pure role heroes? Should the heroes be more team dependent? Or to what extend should a player's solo success effect the overall result, affecting 9 other players?

I can't agree with this reasoning (and what seems more like bias against S2) when much older (usually ported) versatile heroes are just as viable and almost always have been: just to name a few.

Completely role defined heroes need to stay as a minority for situational picking strategies. Blanket role definition for the whole pool just doesn't work as that's just rock/paper/scissor balancing and HoN doesn't work like that.

Exactly what has changed in that respect? The meta constantly shifts and yet it's become more and more player driven rather than response from changes made to the game by S2. I mean, the big shifts S2 performed so long ago (assist gold, ganker/push favoritism, +hp regen to all melee ect.) are pretty settled now. However, it's those kinds of blanket changes that ruin the game. With so many variables...you just can't ****ing balance the game by saying "Okay, let's just indiscriminately give all melee heroes more base hp regen!"

[EDIT] The only hero that I can genuinely agree is unbalanced (as far as role/concept/skill, not just power) is . Whether he's UP or OP it doesn't matter, he literally exists outside of the paradigm of HoN's core gameplay.

[Irysa]

Hail master race here, Sunny Day, Rain Dance, and Sandstorm are for losers.

I don't think Stealth Rock is less dumb. Literally only 2 moves in the entire game counter it, when you can use Aura Sphere/Faint Attack/something that isn't fireblast to hit them. You can use defog, haze, sweet scent, flame body, and etc. to counter it as well, while you only have double team and defog to counter sneaky stones over there. Also, Stealth Rock single handedly dropped Ninjask from high OU to low RU/NU. That's 2/3 tiers right there. I have never seen a single move drop pokemon so many tiers by being put into the game. Still standing by my point that both are dumb, but one shouldn't be scrutinized/banned without the other. Really, what good has Stealth Rock done besides killing Charizard off from any sort of competitive play?

Also, I think Sleep Clause is kinda dumb this gen. I mean, 1st turn wakeups are really common now, and Natural Cure/Shed Skin/Lum Berry/Snore are actually kinda common. Sleep Clause just makes Sleep the worst status effect.

Oh, and on the subject of Rayquaza: Every legendary has a weakness, but that doesn't stop Rayquaza from ripping into the anuses of all of those Kyogre's/Groudon's in Ubers, and it doesn't stop him from having one of the highest BST's in game. Just because he quad weak to ice doesn't negate him from being uber. I mean, Garchomp is quad weak to ice, and he's in uber.

But I digress. Pokemon has more similarities to HoN that most would think. You just have to be willing to straw man hard enough to see them.

Whilst SR definitely has had a huge impact on the meta, Evasion affects the game in more ways than simple counters and mindgames. Both players can play and understand what SR and Spikes and **** will do to the game, their lineup, and their lead. There are many type combinations where the SR damage is not really too significant, and Rapid Spinners on the whole can cover a large amount of bases, from sweeping, to setting your own SR/Spikes, Baton Passing, etc.

When you look at Evasion, theres just so many dumb things to consider. 100% accuracy moves are not going to deal with some Baton Passed Sweeper in time for you to not get rolled, except for Aura Sphere (bad type coverage), which has an even smaller distribution than Rapid Spin.

Haze distribution is also ****ing terrible. (Vaporeon is the only support who can run it decently iirc?) Most Phazers dont hit behind subs, can actually MISS anyway so fail at the job of reducing evasiveness sometimes, and they degenerate the game into PP stalling too. :\

Foresight, Odor Sleuth and Miracle Eye are like the only true counters to Evasion ****ery, and they still kind of pose the same problem with the whole Baton Passing shenannigans you can run.

(Also, considering Gen V added counter resets on Sleep...if anything that makes it all the more necessary or again, you're devolving to just hoping you wake up in one turn. The entire Rayquaza point is just to point out that "the amount of counters" dont really offset the fact that Evasion is retarded)

Your comparison of Stealth Rock to Valkyrie I will have to generally agree with on though, since fundamentally, both are pretty ****ing dumb/shut out lots of other options and people are just kinda used to it overall. But please don't try to argue that anything in HoN is even near as retarded as Evasion in Pokemon.

DONE WITH POKETALK FOR GOOD GG TO CRITS

People that act like Ra is some abomination have also clearly forgotten about the days of Chalice...maybe he was originally conceptualised back then when HoN really was all about mindless spamming. :V

The only change I would honestly like to see to Ra is the removal entirely of his attack speed buff from his passive. This and possbily some other minor tweaks to affect his scaling and carry potential. Why? Because I think Ra is really supposed to be more of an initiator. Portal Key is a the most common pickup on Ra in a serious game, because Ra's strength is that the enemy team does not really want to waste their time focusing him when he jumps in to set stuff up. He's more functional in this than most other PK init heroes like Magmus or Behemoth or Tempest who tend to have to wait till the fight has started a little bit before actually doing a good jump in.

Whilst yes, the concept of not using mana is dumb, he farms retardedly well, etc, his effective carry potential is honestly not that good in any game which he isn't snowballing in hardcore, and compared to other annoying tanky heroes like Zephyr, he honestly doesn't function as well in this regard. I don't believe the barrier of how he's using spells and his ease of use really is the problem moreso than he just needs to be a bit less of a carry so he will function more IN the team.

Having things that challenge the concept of the game and the way it works is very common in other competitive games (such as fighters, comparing the way characters play like Robo Ky in Guilty Gear, Foxxy in KoF, Nrvnqsr Chaos in Melty Blood, etc their unique traits are part of what make them attractive and add to the spice of the game), its part of the variety in design. If anything, I think HoN actually more than not is TRYING TO NOT GO OUTSIDE THE BOX ENOUGH LATELY. Back when the hardcore hero pumping started happening, you could tell S2 were deliberately trying to inject the game with lots of new interesting mechanics to spice up the game with. Yeah, whacky things are potentially broken, or hard to use/difficult to understand, but thats exactly what makes these types of games stay interesting, looking at the different ways many different things can fit together. Then again, S2's track record with balance patches isn't so hot lately so maybe it's best they're not introducing FOTM broken heroes anymore...

So yeah in a nutshell - Ra being the way he is with his spell use is NOT the issue, nor is the way S2 are actually designing their heroes on the whole. The problem is morein that they just really suck at balancing them effectively and timely.

[foxmindedguy]

The hero RA is based around (King Leoric) requires mana for using his stun slow skill Q. And has 2nd and 3rd skill as passive.

Basically Leoric is balanced as he can't spam too much, RA on the other hand is a mechanically toxic to the game (manaless hero).

[GregerMoek]

Ra is probably based around both Phoenix and SK. Or at least it looks like a mix between the two on paper. I agree with that he's a toxic to the game in terms of lower level play because of how he works.

[Irysa]

The hero RA is based around (King Leoric) requires mana for using his stun slow skill Q. And has 2nd and 3rd skill as passive.

Basically Leoric is balanced as he can't spam too much, RA on the other hand is a mechanically toxic to the game (manaless hero).

Ra is probably based around both Phoenix and SK. Or at least it looks like a mix between the two on paper. I agree with that he's a toxic to the game in terms of lower level play because of how he works.

Yes in lower level play, Ra is pretty unbalanced. But I still don't agree that the fact he's not using mana is actually a fundamental problem. I do think its really stupid and annoying but so are lots of those other characters I listed from other games. Like, here, I'll actually just flat out compare.

Think of Tension Meter like mana in this regard.

In Guilty Gear, Robo Ky has a completely different Tension Bar (super meter) to any other character. It barely goes up from most of the usual things that increase meter. However, his 2D (crouching Dust) places a mat on the floor that when Robo Ky is standing on, he basically gets meter for free (even more when you dash across it). He also has a bunch of other special moves that can increase the bar (one of his supers gives him unlimited meter till the timer on the super runs out, he has a command throw that steals meter from the opponent...etc)

In addition to this he has multiple levels of meter he can be at, which all affect his special attacks. At low meter his specials are all pitifully weak and are basically useless, and the more meter you get, the stronger and stronger they become. Using ANY of these special attacks, not only supers and force breaks will deplete his meter really fast.

There's also a seperate bar that distinguishes how close he is to overheating. By using too many of various attacks, he will increase this bar, and if it gets too high he will explode, take damage, and fall over on the ground. The level of heat also affects the properties of various attacks, increasing their hitstun/blockstun (how long the opponent is stuck in animations after being hit or blocking) and their damage.

As a result, he must also manage his heat bar by using various other moves to keep the level where you want it (ideally high, but not dangerously high), most notably his 6HS (forward heavy slash) where he litearlly just burps exhaust at the opponent (that is ALSO changed depending on his heat level)

So what does this mean in a nutshell? Basically he can get crazy meter, even when you and your opponent aren't really doing anything, and he has lots of ways to unload it super fast to control the opponent, at no real cost. In high level play, Robo isn't really a problem at all, but he's a pretty solid "scrub killer" character at low level because of the way he works (he gets super level attacks and projectiles for basically no cost). Yeah Robo's system is way more complex and cool than Ra's is, but I still don't fundamentally agree that utilising mechanics differently makes Ra a bad hero.

For another quick comparison, look at A.B.A, same game. When in one of her activated modes, she damages herself for attacking a lot, but upon exiting or swapping out of the mode, you get life back based upon how much damage you dealt (sort of similar to Ra's Meteor)

EDIT: Here's a new tidbit Skelo, SR = TP scroll/Homecoming stone

[Jenova26]

...so you need something that can "make up for" the OJ -SW-Repick-SW pick.

lol'd pretty hard at this.

The real issue here, back on topic, isn't that some heroes do to much, it's that the game has changed significantly in one balance patch and the community wasn't ready for it and still refuses to accept it. The manaring/pushstrat/tanky dps pubtrain trend has made the most unique and interesting heroes far less viable (eg. Chipper, Bubbles, Hag, TB, Pyro). In the way the game is now, it's less of a skill battle as it is a drafting battle so that when the unstoppable force inevitably hits the immovable object, there's a chance to divert the push and counterpush.

No single hero, currently is really overpowered. Some are better than other, but there's no "pick x and win" heroes on the table. However, the "pubtrainism" that's going on right now gives the appearance that some heroes are "too good" since they contribute so well to pushing. In my opinion, the fix to this is to lessen assist gold and/or lessen group XP gain. The only issue is that this slightly discourages teamfighting, but no one teamfights for the XP. The plus to reducing group XP is that it would put power back in the hands of gankers, re-emphasize lane control and dominance, and penalize the "ring, group, push" mentality that I and many others feel is degrading the enjoyment of this game.

The numbers per player should be staggered so that 2 players still get the same XP split, but 5 players would be halved. 3 and 4 players would be calculated somewhere in between that.

Overall, I think this change, or something very similar (if the numbers were worked properly), would give a lot of power back to the players with individual skill and slow the pubtrain plague. I think we can all agree that, alone, a Midas, Keeper, Nomad, Ra, Tremble, etc (all of the often claimed to be OP heroes) are really not that hard to take out. It's when you get the 5man push going that they become that "unstoppable force." I'd like to get back to the days when I could find someone farming creeps and gank them with Pebbles, Fayde, or Pyro. This 5 people farming one creep wave with no penalty sh** has to go. That's what's really hurting the game, not the hero pool itself.

[[eR]Ekamo]

Why are the mods letting all this bullshit that doesn't matter about other games in a HoN balance thread?

Because this is not a balance thread per se, it is more focused on design.
Some comparisons are worse than others but they all still seem to have some link to HoN.

With that said, try to stay on topic and discuss Moba games hero design since that is the most relevant to the topic.

[skeloperch]

The hero RA is based around (King Leoric) requires mana for using his stun slow skill Q. And has 2nd and 3rd skill as passive.

Basically Leoric is balanced as he can't spam too much, RA on the other hand is a mechanically toxic to the game (manaless hero).

Concept wise, he isn't as toxic to the game as Valkyrie, DR, Bubbles, and any other ranged semi-carry with an escape mechanism and cc. I don't care how fast Ra can farm, when you give a hero an escape mechanism, long range for kiting, and cc, you ****ed up. Those heroes hard counter Ra, too. What is Ra gonna do when he can't get close enough to W you, but can't get far away enough to Q you? He's ****ed. Then he revives and you kill him again. "But wait, what if team fight? wat do skeloperch oh based god?" Ra is still dependant on his team, to an extent. Kill the team and Ra is useless.

Still not implying that Ra is good in any way, shape, or form. Horrible design concept, horrible execution.