why buff it ??? situational item man..
chronos + sotm + ur team carry elder parasite ?? ;DDD
2800g with a build up with 2 recipes giving more lifesteal and magic armor
2800g 18-19% lifesteal 7 magic armor
3300g 19-21% lifesteal 9 magic armor
3800g 20-23% lifesteal 11-12 magic armor.
obviously nonstackable with shamans/vestments.
would synergize very much with the "LS + decent EHP low HP" - mentality.
being able to take less damage is obviously more important than a lot of HP if you got a decent way to gain life back.
instead of having lots of HP and spending ages to refill it.
Also adding a ringmail in there would be nice. and adding stats and recipe cost accordingly
I think the main problem is the fact that it is an orb, with negligible lifesteal, it defeats the purpose of quick glass-cannon style damage output, which is overshadowed by Shieldbreaker heavily nowadays.
My suggestion to balance EP is to remove the lifesteal component, and i've put my own creative spin on it, turning EP into a new type of boot.
Red boots (500g) + Steamstaff (800g) + chainmail (550) = 1850g
60 ms | + 10 dmg | +10 AS | +5 armor
Active ability: Frenzy (exact same as current)
Gains 100% AS and 20% MS, but taking 15% more damage
this way the natural item gives armor to help block some of the extra damage, and the natural damage/AS from the steamstaff helps it be viable without the effect on.
If not used as a boot, it could easily be resigned to use chainmail + Major Totem + Steamstaff = 1890g
+5 armor, +5 to all stats +10 AS +10 MS. Possibly make it upgradeable?
The main problem with the item is that formerly it filled in a niche. It had ms and as. We now have several more items that give movement speed like shroud, genjuro, frostburn, energizer, ghost marchers and stormspirit. All better items then elder parasite. We also used to have (in dota) very little items with attack speed but that has changed a lot too like steamboots getting ias, more hyperstone recipies, insanitarius, shroud with as, genjuro, charged hammer, frostburn geomancers bane, etc....
When elder parasite came out in dota, it was a must have item because of the movement speed. That was the biggest advantage. It was used to escape and to gank. Centaur comes to mind for example. Ghost marchers gives the same boost and has no drawbacks. It is even better since you get the extra damage.The life steal is ok and the ias is good as it is but in the early game with the 15% damage taken it is simply better to just buy a hyperstone and just have the 50 ias constantly then a situational 100 as with extra damage taken. Especially with a lot of burst damage heroes.
If you would want to change the item I think we should remove the speed boost and give it something else in return. Don't know what to be honest but it needs to fill in a niche again.
Extra damage penalty aside, as with all IAS items in Hon, you run the risk of going into a situation where you're throwing away 40 or more AS because you are on a boundary that doesn't give you any extra dps. +100 AS puts most heroes into 230+ AS or more just from levels, base AS, and typical items. Maybe someone can nerd it up for Chronos (since he's the only hero to use Elder in any competitive scenario) and show typical situations where he's 300 GPM and throwing away huge amounts of AS?
1900g for 100 AS + 20% MS + 17% lifesteal + 15% damage taken. You pay for what you get. And as man_guy stated the issue is with AS in itself. AS has diminishing returns as someone else stated. Also, there's the fact that there is a golden ratio/curve between AS and Damage for max effective dps.
Do I think EP needs buffs? Maybe, leaning towards no.
What I do think is that everyone needs to ask themself this: Would I build EP if I truly thought it would work fine on a hero, even though I'd get shot down by my pro 1800 buddies? EP has a "bad reputation." It's how the HoN community feels.
(Off topicish) Think about magebane. Long ago when the standard build was rushing runed cleaver. Then Lethe(was it lethe?) posted his theorycraft about how double stats + hotbl + frostburn would be a much better route than runed cleaver. What happened afterwards? Well, we see hotbl first on magebane most games now. And I can guarantee anyone being the first to experiment with hotbl would get the "rofl, this noob magebane" because it's unorthodox and not yet accepted by the community. Was hotbl on magebane a bad build previously? No. Did hotbl get buffed in some way that made it even more god tier? No. It was just that no one was willing to give it the chance.
Would you build hotbl on every hero? Sure, why the **** not. Give it a go. Have you tried EP on every hero and experimented every possible outcome? Probably not. EP is niche as others have stated. Seeing as AS is the biggest factor(subjective, I know) in it's pickup, the hero that would ever use it would have to have a skill that benefits from hitting more often and/or high base damage. Which is why we see EP on Chronos from time to time. It's not supposed to be viable/good on every hero. That shouldn't be the case for any item.
When talking bout EP we need to analyze all the facts concerning this item at the same time.
If you want to analyze just 1 side of EP you will say:
EP is bad because drawback is scaling into late game while raw a.speed doesnt.
smb else will comment
If you know what your doing you can activate EP inteligently letting you avoid most of burst dmg which will be bursted before you will use the item.
Although every argument is correct they need to be analyzed together. The prob of EP that i see is the fack that even tho you can activate EP after enemy waste all of his nukes/disables, the fact is that EP while not being active is pretty much 2k item not giving you any bonusses. As all agreed EP is early-mid game item what makes his attack modifier life steal pretty useless couz of the low dps that hero posses at this stage of the game.
Because of the situation explained above i belive that EP should be changed in 1 of 3 following ways:
1. Make the increased dmg affect only a) autoattacks or b) physical dmg
2. Change the build up of EP where instead of expensive rcp, it would require couple of decent stat items just like insanitarius does.
3. Make the recipe of EP rebuyable in the way where every another rcp would decrease the amplified dmg by 5%, cooldown by 3s and increase lifesteal by 2% making it an item:
- 4900 gold for 20% increased movement speed, 100 ias on activation and 21% lifesteal (in my oppinion 20% movement speed in most cases would be comparatively attractive as bonuses offered by other a.speed oriented items).
Get shrunken head1. Make the increased dmg affect only a) autoattacks or b) physical dmg
So +20% MS +100AS active for free with no recipe cost seems legit to you? Balanced cuz carries need to be the best unit type at all stages of the game?2. Change the build up of EP where instead of expensive rcp, it would require couple of decent stat items just like insanitarius does.
Why do we even want to buff carries again? why make lifesteal a "viable" choice of modifier? you do realize the obvious brokenness of heroes being able to get insane survivability through stacking a bunch of pure DPS items?
Seriously try playing SH+EP hammerstorm with ult and then come back and tell me it's not worth the 1900 gold
"Proclamation was made, in the King's Name, for all Persons to keep Silence" - House of Lords Journal, Volume 20, 24 June 1717
I don't think the item has a problem, I think the vast majority of people that buy it on their 800hp steamboots-on-green agility heroes have a problem. The numbers clearly show back on page 2 of this thread that EP is actually pretty great at increasing both damage output _and survivability_ IF you're able to keep attacking the whole time. If you get CC'ed then you're dead, so you really need to have a shrunken head first.
The problem isn't Elder Parasite, the problem is people that don't know how to use it. We've all had those games where the Chronos picks one up as his first buy and then can't understand why he never survives 0.001 nanoseconds past the end of his ultimate. It is much more rare to see one who only uses his EP to farm with until he's got a shrunken head, and ONLY THEN will he consider using it in teamfights because he can cover the post-bubble vulnerability with his shrunken activation.