[2.5.9] Elder Parasite

[[TTFR]Chime]

Just make the lifesteal of this item stack with orb effects, but not other kinds of lifesteal orbs. Would make a Maliken Shieldbreaker EP viable for at least me again.

[GregerMoek]

Just make the lifesteal of this item stack with orb effects, but not other kinds of lifesteal orbs. Would make a Maliken Shieldbreaker EP viable for at least me again.

Thing is, do we want to buff something that will have huge impact on previous double modify users?

[[Cir]Tensler]

The life steal component of this item is what holds it back from being made useful. As long as there is lifesteal on the item it will cause the item to be broken because it will NEED to be an attack modifer, but looking closer at the item the lifesteal of the item is the least important peice of this item even if it is in the recipe. Essientally this item needs a remake for it to be useful in team fight situations that would most likely involve getting rid of the life steal component and replacing it with a steam staff or pair of swift gloves.

Another take on the item is that its effect lasts too long. It would be a massive buff to the item if the effect lasted say 6 or 7 seconds. This would make it a good pick up alongside a shrunken early on but later in the game still having that drawback that helps define the item.

[Pellikan]

Theory crafting is the reason most things are found to either be too stronk or too weak. Looking at old helm as an example. You can see it as +6 Regen, +300 HP and 70% chance to block 40. You could say, Heart gives you more!

But looking at the numbers, the HP gained back throughout the fight, the blocking and the raw HP points, you can see it actually overshadows Heart in terms of HP/Gold.

Back to EP. I linked a nice piece of non anecdotal evidence which shows the items actual DPS and what it can do. The item is far from bad. Much like Charged Hammer it actually outputs a lot of damage for what you pay. EP Just doesn't grant you any health or anything to keep you alive, and dare I say, thats what balances it. You need to combine it with another item to maximize its usefulness.

100 Attack speed (a bit less than 2 Warpclefts 4200 gold) for 1900. I'd say its not atrocious in the right context. The item has a place in the game, as to where though, that needs to be found out.

You have to remember that att-speed is less important than damage. There is rarely a time where you can sit and use all your att-speed you get(also hotbl/shield counters att-speed).

Just pure math doesnt work often in a game like hon.

[pechkin]

You have to remember that att-speed is less important than damage. There is rarely a time where you can sit and use all your att-speed you get(also hotbl/shield counters att-speed).

Just pure math doesnt work often in a game like hon.

you can not get elder parasite by the time that block thing is somewhat worthy compared to other's dmg, your speech about how it counters attack speed is so touching yet it's just a false. Not to mention that you should stop living in the past, because hotb is not the same anymore, attack speed actually COUNTERS it. Attack speed is not less important than damage.

The life steal component of this item is what holds it back from being made useful. As long as there is lifesteal on the item it will cause the item to be broken because it will NEED to be an attack modifer, but looking closer at the item the lifesteal of the item is the least important peice of this item even if it is in the recipe. Essientally this item needs a remake for it to be useful in team fight situations that would most likely involve getting rid of the life steal component and replacing it with a steam staff or pair of swift gloves.

Another take on the item is that its effect lasts too long. It would be a massive buff to the item if the effect lasted say 6 or 7 seconds. This would make it a good pick up alongside a shrunken early on but later in the game still having that drawback that helps define the item.

life steal component is not broken, even without lifesteal you get enough benefits from Ep for it's cost, and it only gets better the more dmg you got because of that lifesteal. You want another modifier - fine, buy it and switch to that modifier, what's the problem?

It's not effect that lasts too long, it's just that you need to learn how to use it to your advantage, if you are not fighting heroes the longer it lasts the better, if you are using it to boost ms the longer it lasts the better, if you got shrunken head to prevent massive magical dmg the longer it lasts the better.
If you go no defensive items and want to use it in fight for 6-7 sec, use it BEFORE you engage, equate that moment, use some ****ing skill. You want every item to be a no brainer, EP is not that king of item.

[[SBT]Doomhammar]

S2 could always do the on it. Seperate positive and negative buffs, so that extra damage taken and speed buffs are seperated. Negative one could be purged with :NullfireBlade: and possibly even :ShrunkenHead:, giving the item viability by synergy. Nullfire and EP both increase AS -> Massive procs.

Lifesteal component is also something kind of unfitting. Maybe giving it an other attack modifier, something that fits the name "Elder Parasite", such as reduced damage done by enemy.

People implying "AS of 2 Warpclefts in 1900g" don't just understand the whole picture, because the game revolves around tanky melees and escape artist rangeds. And most of the time ones that could actually benefit from that AS are melees :chro: for example. EP just does not fit the game at the moment. Either changes to the whole game should be made or Elder Parasite. And i hope for the latter.

[Apostate]

Elder Parasite is just inherently a risky item that a smart team will use against you if you let them.

I'm happy that it is in the game even if it isn't used competitively. Making the tradeoff better to make it seen more might make it a better item, but what is the point? Do we need more variety in the attack modifiers that are used competitively?

My fix for it if it had to be tweaked would be this(warning: baseless suggestion of an amateur)

Remove all passive effects from the item. Item becomes toggleable and grants 17% lifesteal, 100 attack speed, 20% movespeed, and +15% damage when toggled on. Once toggled off, may not be toggled on again for 15 seconds.

[[CMAP]God`]

Item is fine as it is, just gotta have some balls and some brains to use it. Competitive players have the brains but not the balls, and pubs might have the balls but they dont have the brains. Then some innovators like Brized and Loda have both and then it can really be powerful.

[PowerBro]

Just make the lifesteal of this item stack with orb effects, but not other kinds of lifesteal orbs. Would make a Maliken Shieldbreaker EP viable for at least me again.

Yeah... would be fine for Maliken for all I care... but I have no interest in fighting a Valk with EP/SB, a Silhouette, a Flint even would be ****in devastating with those double orb.

[[SBT]Necroth]

Remove all passive effects from the item. Item becomes toggleable and grants 17% lifesteal, 100 attack speed, 20% movespeed, and +15% damage when toggled on. Once toggled off, may not be toggled on again for 15 seconds.

Approved.

[smurfberrys]

Elder Parasite is just inherently a risky item that a smart team will use against you if you let them.

I'm happy that it is in the game even if it isn't used competitively. Making the tradeoff better to make it seen more might make it a better item, but what is the point? Do we need more variety in the attack modifiers that are used competitively?

My fix for it if it had to be tweaked would be this(warning: baseless suggestion of an amateur)

Remove all passive effects from the item. Item becomes toggleable and grants 17% lifesteal, 100 attack speed, 20% movespeed, and +15% damage when toggled on. Once toggled off, may not be toggled on again for 15 seconds.

That's going a bit far. If they made it so you could turn it off but it still lasted for the same duration (as long as you don't turn it off) with the same cooldown it would allow you to use it in between heroes nuke cycles.

[[420]Shocker420]

I think this item is best being weaker than stronger kinda like brutaliser. They have the potential to be really OP and annoying. Before playing hon I was into the dota map on Starcraft 2 and the item that stunned was a core item on every carry ( there's less options though) I was really surprised and glad that it wasn't a popular pickup in hon.

[SilhouetteX]

Yo what if we just made it so you could disassemble Elder Parasite? That would make it a much more viable an item pick up because it could just be built into Satanic late game. I know its weird, disassembling EP because it uses a recipe but the recipe could be sold back for 500.

[I`Laughed]

I see it this way:

Most carrys, if not all carrys picks up an attack modifier during the game. Shieldbreaker/Whispering helm/Frostbrand are also alot better, because you can keep building them. Shieldbreaker to rank3, Frostbrand to Frostwolf or Frostburn, Whispering helm to Symbol of rage.

To use your attack modifier slot for 1900 gold is just plain stupid. The item could actualy be good late game, if combined with shrunken and lots of dmg, maybe Elder parasite should be considered in a more expensive build up, since 100% attackspeed does not matter on a carry as long as you have +70 auto attack dmg.

[echelon]

LOL This item is top notch already.
The idea that it needs a buff is pretty ignorant.
Shrunken + Elder with any auto attack hero is amazing.

You don't need to activate it if you think you're going to get targetted. Bait someone and use it when you have the advantage. It only costs $1900 for AMAZING potential when you position well.

[Ogrim]

I never buy the thing so what would i know...


But Seems to me like this item should be on a toggle rather than an activation. Basically you should be able to turn it off, while it still retains the cooldown.

The item is perfectly fine, its just dangerous as hell and thus not picked up often.

The other option is to buff it with stats and make it cost more.


Edit: basically what apost said

[Fen__]

I dont get it why most of people cry that EP sux because he got an attack modifier...

Who cares if it got lifesteal, if you want it use it, if not just switch to something else. Getting lifesteal on EP doesnt obligate to use it, its just a free bonus that can become usefull for some heroes.

I got no problems in getting frostburn (because of great stats and must have movement speed buff for most of mele) after finishing sb. 1 attack modifier doesnt counter the other one, it just gives you the ability to choose which one you prefer

[[TMWP]AuverAskerud]

I really don't understand why we can't have situational items, just like we can have situational heroes. It's things like these that makes the game fun, trying out unorthodox item builds and I think EP is a really fun item to experiment with (Pebbles anyone?).

[BooBoo_Bear]

I have often wondered if Elder Parasite would have a better place if it was reworked to no longer give static life steal. Once activated it would give a "buffed" crazed effect (this of course would need a balance discussion). The new buffed crazed effect could in fact have a life steal property but if it did it would need no longer be considered an orb effect (similar to that of symbol)

[Ogrim]

I dont get it why most of people cry that EP sux because he got an attack modifier...

Who cares if it got lifesteal, if you want it use it, if not just switch to something else. Getting lifesteal on EP doesnt obligate to use it, its just a free bonus that can become usefull for some heroes.

I got no problems in getting frostburn (because of great stats and must have movement speed buff for most of mele) after finishing sb. 1 attack modifier doesnt counter the other one, it just gives you the ability to choose which one you prefer

... Seriously?

Just no.