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This item does too much. Both true strike AND an amazing proc is silly, especially when both are very powerful counters to expensive items, aside from being quite useful on their own (ranged heroes shooting up hill, etc).
Either one of those needs to be moved to another item, or the damage/attack speed needs to be nerfed so that it's not the end-all-be-all attack item.
Another option might be to make true strike an active ability--say, 10 seconds with a 30 second cooldown.
And why, please explain even if it might be obvious, are those changes gonna put Savage Mace in a better state than now? How would this affect time of pickup, situation when pickup etc etc?
If you don't provide any of that it's just another cool story bro. Read the moderation rules.
As others has said already it's a counter item that is good on its own, now this isn't the problem per se, but it's too good on its own.
And even in 1v1 situations, a Wingbow carrier can win against a Savage Mace carrier. The main thing is that if the Savage mace carrier didn't have the savage mace he'd be losing big time.
I think Wingbow is underestimated even if someone on the other team has a Savage Mace, but that doesn't make Savage Mace super balanced.
Last edited by GregerMoek; 02-18-2012 at 02:14 AM.
Stats are like women in bikinis, they are interesting to look at however they don't show you everything.
people still buy savage mace? i dont think i've seen savage rather than a shieldbreaker in like 6 months time
savagve mace was popular when lifesteal was still viable. a year ago
first. Savage mace says it counters enemy evasion, but for some reason it also counters your own misses uphill/in NH smoke.
2nd. attack speed comes out of nowhere and savage mace got enough bonuses already for it to not exist.
Attack speed is a relic from an old buildup, and true strike says it ignores miss chance...Originally Posted by pechkin
Let me spell it out plain for you
Angry people complain about the things I do
I'm not changing direction, I'm stepping my game up
Maintaining my name, the same way I came up.
Truth is, I thought it mattered
I thought that music mattered.
But does it? Bollocks!
Not compared to how people matter.
i know where it comes from, i say that it doesnt make sense.
and true strike says "Grants True Strike, which allows the wielder to ignore enemy evasion", it says it ignores miss chance in dota, not in hon.
Well done, you've found a tooltip bug! Feel free to submit it to the stickied thread in Mechanics! Grats man!
Let me spell it out plain for you
Angry people complain about the things I do
I'm not changing direction, I'm stepping my game up
Maintaining my name, the same way I came up.
Truth is, I thought it mattered
I thought that music mattered.
But does it? Bollocks!
Not compared to how people matter.
My preferred change would be tweaking truestrike (moving it, nerfing it, removing it) The reason is that savage mace sans true strike is an awesome item, the true strike is the icing on the cake that lols at wingbow. I'm ok with savage mace being a go-to damage/interrupt item like it is now-- I just dont think you should automatically wreck another item by getting an already good item.
And you're right, wingbow is still a decent item, especially on heroes who can steroid up base damage (eg nh). Yet it becomes quite subpar against a savage mace user. You're basically losing 1800 gold (cost of the evasion component) when it costs them nothing, since savage mace really doesn't sacrifice much in terms of dps/gold for true strike.
Hard/expensive buildup and works like **** on its own.
Leave it as it is.
This is exactly the problem. Wingbow shouldn't be countered this hard for free on the best damage item already. Posting to keep this thread up as they haven't touched the damage items at all last patch (besides the split attacks)...
891 average BPM
Wingbow is too powerful if it has no counter. While true strike should be removed from SM, it shouldn't be removed entirely. It would probably be best if it was added to some sort of new INT utility item like Sheepstick or Hellflower.
Whoa can of worms.
Options:
1. Nerf Savage Mace without touching True Strike.
2. Make True Strike cost 500-1000g extra. So you get an intermediate item, call it Iron Mace. You add a recipe or Snakebracelet (would need recipe and stats change) to it and it becomes Savage Mace.
3. Nerf True Strike such that it doesn't completely ignore evasion.
4. Add a new True Strike item and rework Savage Mace as Alten suggested.
Note re: #2. There's a strong case for making all 'bonus' effects on items require a recipe.
When you combine 2 or more items, you get an inventory slot back. Especially for late game items, moving from 3 slots to 1 is bonus enough. So in order to not have these big items overpowered, the constituent items have to be underpowered.
Underpowered constituent items make the game shallower and deprive players of the opportunity for any superior tactical decisions they make to affect the game
I really don't see how savage mace is in any way overpowered: it has a long, non upgrade-based buildup (eg. shieldbreaker 1, 2 & 3); early on it doesn't give the player much damage and leaves them vulnerable due to lack of survivability; for the proc and ministun to be effective it requires fast attack speed; the proc and stun no longer propogate to illusions; and although it is useful against evasion (Zephyr, Wingbow), having a savage mace in your inventory does not mean you're going to win a teamfight or succeed in a gank because you have a better chance of hitting through evasion (though it does increase the chances a bit). Shieldbreaker can be annoying to counter because it is cheap, has an easy buildup and can take advantage to the lack of + armour items available early. Sure, it has no ministun (or true strike), but why would you need a ministun on heroes likeor
, even
when you can just 3-4 shot kids (... lol).
Personally, I like the idea where the price is reduced to 3800 gold and where it gives 70 damage instead of 88. It would be competitive with other choices and would be a viable early choice... Or they could just nerf the **** out of shieldbreaker and sol's, as is needed. I would support that too.
Edit: spelling and grammar.
Its raw damage makes it one of the most cost effective damage items in the game, with only doombringer, raw damage items and riftshards 1 better, and slightly ahead of shieldbreaker 3 (incidentally, shieldbreaker is way to cost effective at its price bracket). Then it has ministuns, true strike and the 100 damage procs, and some haste for good measure. If you model the 35% chance of 100 damage as an extra 35 damage on every attack, it becomes slightly more cost effective for damage (still ignoring the the haste, ministun and trustrike) than slayer (which is wildly undercosted and part of the problem), and second only to doombringer.
That is why it is overpowered.
Shieldbreaker is also overpowered; it is competitive with these top end items for raw damage/gold, but that doesn't take into account the force multiplier of the negative armour its applying. The only reason savage mace isn't picked up more often is that a shieldbreaker can often end the game before it comes into play.
Thanks for your suggestion, but your analysis is sadly lacking; nerfing the damage to 70 would nerf it down to just slightly less cost effective than a slayer.
E: slayer is currently second in cost effectiveness to doombringer, and more cost effective than punchdagger. Under the assumption that the more of a stat on an item, the more it should cost per stat (for slot efficiency reasons), slayer is pretty much the problem item that causes this whole issue. Slayer at 32 damage would put it in a decent place, but savage mace as sum-of-stats would still be absurdly good. The problem is in the proc being quite so powerful (and to a lesser extent, the haste left over from its old buildup).
Last edited by changlingbob; 03-06-2012 at 04:02 AM.
^this, seriously wtf? Savage is fine
edit:
if anything, up the cost of slayer to 2400 to make up for the raw damage's cost effectiveness, but in general the item is expensive as is and ONLY gives raw damage, it isn't even that great by itself unless paired with other pickups (lifesteal, shieldbreaker, or attack speed). IMHO it really is just fine where it stands.
Last edited by PrestonLee; 03-08-2012 at 03:24 AM.
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FOR ALL THAT IS HOLY~!
Don't worry guys, Lodestone won't be getting picked up in competitive, your balance forum regulars have assured it in this Lodestone balance thread ;)
http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/showthread.php?470528-Lodestone-First-Impressions&p=15618341&viewfull=1#post15618341
Tbh savage mace as a late game dps item is weaker than Harkons or Riftshard and as a early game item Shieldbreaker is a lot more effective.
The build up is quiet easy so ye, I belive this item is fine. He's weaker from some other pickups but there are many heroes who benefit from the procs greatlly making SM almost op on them (moa,madman,draconis, fa not anymore :<)
It may be weaker than harkons and riftshards, but at the same time it's just the true strike ability, which allows range carries to strike uphill with 100% accuracy that makes it such a better pickup compared to riftshards (and of course it can counter the wingbow's evasion)
This is also why, if you have games that lasts long enough, you always see the savage mace+shieldbreaker combo instead of savage mace+riftshards. While both can be powerful, it's just the true strike which makes it better than riftshards, not to mention the 100 additional damage and the ministun.
I would like to see game where at least 10% of teamfights would happen in a uponhill situation where true strike could be usefull. Thats just a theory scenario which happens rather rarelly. True strike is rather used vs evasion than uponhill.
Well tbh i almost never see savage mace + shieldbreaker combo unless smb is making pure glass cannon. If sth i rather see shieldbreaker+ wingbow or wingbow + riftshard (wb very underrated item).
Tbh only situations when im buying savage mace are those when enemy team got nh. Maybe its because that most of people doesnt understand that if you want armor + attack speed, demonic isnt only option and in many scenarios wingbow can be a lot more efficient - than you would pick SM more often.
It just seems savage mace is like pie, cake, and ice cream. Too many advantages heaped on one item.
I like the idea of the stun being magical too, even though SH is a stupidly necessary item for many classes, I don't think a RNG stun on a top tier item should be its counter.
Also @Fox Mulder: Sol's and Shieldbreaker could be fine if they didn't rip the armor components from everything but carry/init items, rarely purchased support items, (Part of the reason I almost always buy plated greaves on supports) and Sol's itself.
changlingbob used math!
It's super effective!
This graph compares the average damage by a savage mace wielder an a riftshards 4 wielder over a range of pre-pickup attack speed (shorter axis) and damage values (longer axis). The graph actually plots the damage done by the riftshards wielder minus the damage done by the savage mace wielder. The orange line is at zero, and so everything lower than that it is better to pick up savage mace, and everything higher than that is better to pick up riftshards. If you feel the values I'm testing over are inappropriate, let me know and I'll change the ranges and update. Apologies that my MATLAB-fu is so weak.
E: this graph obviously doesn't take into account the effects of truestrike and ministuns.
In balance, the burden of proof is on you to show your suggestion a) does what you say it will do, b) won't disrupt balance elsewhere, and c) isn't retarded beyond belief. Until you show these three things, the last may be assumed.
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