[2.5.9] Savage Mace

[Anakha]

Savage Mace
0.3.4:
Damage increased to 88 (proper sum of it's parts) 
    
1.0.9:
Illusions will no longer proc a ministun. They still can get the +100 damage. 
    
1.0.13:
The proc can no longer propagate to illusions

2.0.23:
Old:
Halberd, Halberd, Slayer 
New:
Warhammer, Warhammer, Slayer

Slayer
2.0.23:
Cost lowered from 2400 to 2200

Since 0.3.4, Savage Mace has enjoyed the luxury of being the only self-complete tier 4 damage item that hard counters certain game mechanics (truestrike, channeling with Shrunken Head), while not being able to be soft countered itself like every other comparable dps item.

Charged Hammer - soft-countered by Shrunken Head, lower % proc rate means it is more tightly bound by as barriers, most of its damage is not to the primary target but is splash damage.
Wingbow - soft-countered by Savage Mace (evasion), evasion in and of itself isn't reliable without a higher hp pool to smooth out inconsistent procs.
Riftshards - not self-complete; requires extreme amounts of farm to get to a reliable increase in dps from crit.
Geometer's Bane - soft-countered by AoE, low base stats/damage, illusions are weak initially and die to aoe, require mass stats to bulk up.
Genjuro - soft-countered by invisibility detection, 2-charge system and not having cooldown tick when in use.
Shieldbreaker - soft-countered by stacking more armour, whether by hero skills or items.

Savage Mace currently carries 2 very necessary counters in the game, in an interrupt through magic immunity for lategame - and truestrike.
The issue with this is that while the item functions fine with those counters, it's far too viable in its own right as a dps item over every single other comparable dps item.
This is all due to the high +damage on the item in tandem with the 35% +100 physical damage proc.

As a design principle, an item that carries hard counters shouldn't be viable above all others in its own right even when the things it counters are not in play.

Thank you for reading.

[[eR]Ekamo]

Approved.

[[IaF]Skyve]

I still don't find it being picked up obscenely often, although that might have to do with higher overall burst, making early stats more important than an early damage item.

Anyhow, what do you think removing true-strike and only leaving the mini-stun/damage procc would do to the item?

[Maester96]

Savage mace been fading off of it's former glory imo.

There are less and less games that I see Savage Mace in and instead people buy wingbow (wtf?)

[Anakha]

True Strike is necessary for the game. None of these objections are based on current play trends, but are aimed at addressing deeper issues within the game that lead to the ****tarded **** we see justified now.

[[IaF]Skyve]

True Strike is necessary for the game. None of these objections are based on current play trends, but are aimed at addressing deeper issues within the game that lead to the ****tarded **** we see justified now.

I didn't say it wasn't, I was just thinking that it could be simply moved onto a different item, making Savage Mace a standalone DPS item that also soft-counters Shrunken Head.

[Brannock]

Note that Savage Mace is no longer the proper sum of its part since the Halberd change. 24+24+46 puts the sum at 94.

88 damage for 5600 gold is only marginally less efficient than the components, which is a big no-no when you consider what else you're getting by autocompleting the item - including slot efficiency! Shieldbreaker is 4600 gold for 70 damage and the orb. If you took off one Warhammer from Savage Mace you would have 70 damage + True Strike + Mini-stun + Proc for 3800 gold. That should tell you that something is very wrong about the item.

Slayer itself is insanely gold efficient and builds into an amazing item. Needs a revert on the price buff.

There's no good way to fix Savage Mace by messing with the components, really. The amount of free stats you get is just ridiculous and so far head-and-shoulders over other items. Shieldbreaker/Frostburn is more popular right now because of how early they come into play - if that wasn't a factor, Savage Mace would absolutely be the unquestionable #1 DPS item.

The damage bonus on the bash proc especially stands out to me as way too ****ing high. The attack speed is a relic from the Halberd components iirc and could probably stand to go as well.

Note that changing Savage Mace from Slayer+Warhammerx2 to Slayer+Warhammer+Recipe changes effectively nothing, because players would pick up Slayer first or second always (especially due to how efficient it is), and would be finishing the item anyway by the time they could afford the last Warhammer. Slayer+Recipe could be an interesting route, to mirror Sword of the High + Recipe for Mock of Brilliance.

[FirstToStand]

The main draw from Savage Mace should be the true strike and mini-stun, not the damage. I've always been bitter because it takes away the amazing Butterfly evasion - but not even dust or wards completely negate the stealth from Genjuro, since it gives backstab damage and +25% ms

[[iAPM]DaPPa]

Savage mace doesn't make sense, and I hate it how it's just the goto dps item.

[[BRO]Bohrain]

It might use some tweaking, but remember that small changes can easily make pricy items unviable.
By the way do you think that it's necessary for Savage Mace to outclass Brutalizer in terms of price efficiency and the fact that SM isn't a bash modifier?

[Qweret]

I don't even get Shieldbreaker now, since it doesnt negate the HotD.

When i have the money for my first Warhammer, i try to farm just 600 more and get the Slayer...the other 2 warhammers are not that hard to get. And this item is better in nearly every way against High HP or even High-armor tank Heroes.

It is absurd how strong it is. One of the best items in the game, since it gives you even 100% hit when you attack someone that stands uphill.

Reverting Slayer back to 2600 is maybe a solution^^

[SuperSexyama]

It is absolutely lame that it 100% counters evasion, as the only evasive item in the first place is a serious competitor for a core DPS item. Or at least, it should be and it isn't right now. Maybe make it counter a percent of evasion. Uphill is 25% I think, Wingbow 30%, a 15% "counter" seems strong enough. This item has it all except that it doesn't technically scale as much late late, when you have 2 luxury already and are just ****ing around.

[Sobik]

Change the buildup to Sword of the high + slayer? If you nerf the insanely cost efficient slayer to 2400 gold, the total cost would be 5700 gold, which is fair to me. Perhaps just making it harder to build would give other items a chance (even a wingbow has dancing blade - 3300 gold component). Another positive of this would be more options for Sword of the high; if someone sees you now with it, he knows you are going for mock and prepare for it accordingly.

... it doesn't technically scale as much late late...

It scales the MOST lategame, when everyone has a lot of armor, since true strike completely ignores it. It also scales pretty well with attack speed. More attacks = more procs in a given time frame.

[GregerMoek]

Change the buildup to Sword of the high + slayer? If you nerf the insanely cost efficient slayer to 2400 gold, the total cost would be 5700 gold, which is fair to me. Perhaps just making it harder to build would give other items a chance (even a wingbow has dancing blade - 3300 gold component). Another positive of this would be more options for Sword of the high; if someone sees you now with it, he knows you are going for mock and prepare for it accordingly.


It scales the MOST lategame, when everyone has a lot of armor, since true strike completely ignores it. It also scales pretty well with attack speed. More attacks = more procs in a given time frame.

QFT
Doombringer + Recipe. Seriously?

I THOUGHT I WOULD NEVER LIVE TO SEE THE DAY WHEN SOMEONE SUGGESTED DOOMBRINGER = SAVAGE MACE!

I call bullshit trollpost on this one, first saying Savage Mace should be Doombringer instead, and afterwards saying that it's true damage and not true strike. It isn't TRUE DAMAGE it's TRUE STRIKE.

Too priceless to be real.
On a sidenote, even if Doombringer didn't exist it would be silly.

Don't delete this post please, at least not the part about true damage and true strike. People must seriously learn before they post suggestions out of nowhere and I mean nowhere.

Please, learn this. True Strike means it will never miss, it doesn't mean true damage. Even if Vindicator's Orb has the same colour on popup doesn't mean it has true damage, the same goes for Rampage's popup and that's not true damage either, I don't see where you get this idea from.

Please, seriously please, know what you're talking about before you bring it up into discussion here. We're all tearing our eyes out when we see people without even proper understanding of the item's mechanics come here and brings their opinions.

[changlingbob]

13:31 < changlingbob> and this is why i don't post much
13:33 < changlingbob> also, one of the primary problems with savage mace is that slayer is more cost effective for damage than duckboots
13:34 < changlingbob> (for agi)
13:34 < changlingbob> granted duckboots boost attackspeed and armour
13:34 < changlingbob> but cheap, crappy items are supposed to be the most cost effective
13:34 < changlingbob> due to slot efficiency
13:36 < changlingbob> ok, surprising find: broadsword, warhammer and steamstaff all have the same damage/gold
13:36 < changlingbob> note this ignores the haste on steamstaff
13:38 < changlingbob> but slayer would have to be +30 damage at the same cost to be less efficient than those, and that's +6 damage on warhammer
13:39 < changlingbob> 36 damage at 2500 gold might be a better spot
13:39 < changlingbob> rebalance savage mace's sum-of-parts

this still doesn't solve the uncounterability, but would make it less desirable, more expensive, and start bringing glass cannon issues to the table.

[Kbaby]

Doesn't savage mace technically get soft countered by armor? like... really really soft?

Either way I agree with the OP about the problem with savage mace, and I personally think the problem isn't necessarily the fact that it doesn't really get hard countered or the fact that it hard counters evasion, but the fact that it is such a great DPS option on its own. Seriously, it's gotten to the point where I don't even pick up rift shards on TDL before SM.

[[eR]Ekamo]

True Strike: Completely ignores all kinds of evasion.
True Damage: Completely ignores all kinds of armor.

Savage Mace has True Strike.

End of that discussion and all further posts regarding the topic will be deleted.

[`rnz`]

Wonder how much time it'll take for competitors to switch from SB to Savage as #1 core after sol by the way. That -armor aura works retardly well with savage. Not a direct, but imo definitely an indirect buff (Just comprehend the 70 dmg&-6 armor with 88+100 on procs).

[flox44]

Slayer is still one of the most effecient damage per gold items in the game (and possibly the outlet for fixing it). Savage mace serves a fairly necessary role (true-strike and pure DPS teir 4 item). The main reason we don't see SM much anymore is that for pure DPS 0 survivability items Sheildbreaker overshadows it at almost all parts of the game. You can get it much sooner, and is much more effective during that mid game stage, and is almost as effective in DPS come late game.

I don't know if SM really needs fixing right now, it's an expensive items that really only benefits late game (almost unfairly towards ranged) carries. It's still great damage for the price once your attack mod is selected, and nerfing slayer's price would probably put SM in about the right place.

[`rnz`]

Slayer is still one of the most effecient damage per gold items in the game (and possibly the outlet for fixing it). Savage mace serves a fairly necessary role (true-strike and pure DPS teir 4 item). The main reason we don't see SM much anymore is that for pure DPS 0 survivability items Sheildbreaker overshadows it at almost all parts of the game. You can get it much sooner, and is much more effective during that mid game stage, and is almost as effective in DPS come late game.

I don't know if SM really needs fixing right now, it's an expensive items that really only benefits late game (almost unfairly towards ranged) carries. It's still great damage for the price once your attack mod is selected, and nerfing slayer's price would probably put SM in about the right place.

Did you read the posters above you ?