I find this whole topic backwards. People buy vestments and I believe that Spellshards is the counter to THAT, not the other way around. I mean.. yes, it counters Spellshards in the same way that a Sol's counter's a Sol's, but that's just nonsense.
To me Spellshards is still worth it to force them to go to Shaman's or bring up the midgame burst before they react. You win a teamfight or two with an unexpectedly powerful burst effect and BAM, your team has the extra farm and the enemy is spending loadsa gold to counter you.
Think about it this way; imagine you have Spellshards AND you're correct. Every enemy (assuming you fully upgraded) buy's a vestments: You're still producing an extra (relative)10% damage (or something) while the enemy team just spent 2000 gold to get the vestments. If they all buy Shaman's for similar reason they just spent 10,000 for your 4.5k. The balance is a bit tricky.
Honestly either way the items do their job and do it as intended. IMO the item is fine until you see people using multiple of them; I.E. if the item was a problem (let's say as if crushing claws costed only 110 and people spammed em lvl1 like candy) then you'd have a notable defense. As it stands people deciding on armor instead of positioning/crowd control is the issue. I assume better players may simply go the route of spending the slot + gold on better items and utilize teamwork instead of tankyness.
The preference of the players to use the 400 gold + slot up on this seems like a playerbase issue. Isn't this similar to using win percentages to decide whether or not to nerf heroes? The meta of buying some item doesn't necessarily suggest that the item is the problem, but may suggest that the mindset of players has been skewed:
++Why ward and work as a team if I think I can survive a magic burst?++
I don't think that the item usage will change unless the mentality changes. Vestments being a decent item helps some heroes (if used well) be more relevant as Myrm, Rev, and others have -MA skills that are usually used for other reasons.
Spellshards is not really the most picked up item in the game, only a few heroes get the item nowadays and they are not even played that often. Vestments is a problem even without Spellshards in terms of cost efficiency.
With all the huge magic dmg burst heroes, this has become core on every single hero i play.
it is incredibly strong for 400g and maybe it should be looked at. but if it is nerfed it is basically buffing every magic dmg nuker.
The boots idea (same as plated) is great. I don't really care about vestments atm, as magic dmg is disgusting currently, but creep exploding is certainly one of my biggest issues atm.
Tbh, I'd still get vestments at 550g at a certain point, so (crazy idea, just want to spitball) maybe have a global effect on these magic marchers so people prefer to go bracers instead (if the "mandatory item" is your biggest problem).
In my oppinion there is nothing wrong with vastements.
Mystic vastements have "adaptation ability" to what game state we got atm. In early game when hon nukers are just too strong and most of them can burst whoever they want vastements are must have. They arent making you immune to any magic attack letting you laugh in the face of enemys, they are just giving you a slight chance to survive the incoming burst and run away. Look at pebbels, you dont pick early vastements to counter and rape him, you take it to have a small chance of surviving his burst when your in a solo sitution.
As we aproach to mid game, the burst potential is still higher than the survivability earned buy buying items. I never heared that smb got a problem in bursting down enemy carry with at least 2 people (unless those are some tank heroes like elec/ra).
In the late game it all changes, you start to lack item slots so most of heroes and almost every carry will sell those vastements to get other core items. Because of that i belive that vastements are very well fitting the current meta game.
In early game they are a bit balancing the opness of burst hero, in mid game the carry vs burster is pretty much even thx to vastements and in late game when nukes start to suffer a bit, item slots comes into play, carry sell vastements and make a little balancing in terms of op carrys vs weaker burst heroes (ofc in some games it doesnt have to look like this, but in most games vastements role looks like that)
Yes vastements cost only 400 gold, but at the same time they can be a completly useless cost. When your playing vs example gaunt, in early stages of the game usually you got not enough EHP to survive his burst +1-2 autoattacks anyway.
Another thing worth mentioning is the fact that in many cases vastements arent that good item at least in early stage of the game. If you got support with lets say 700 hp, getting vastements is almsot dumb. With such a low hp pool +5 magic armor wont help you too much and its better to just get bracer.
To sum up, although many people gave an argument that vastements make the game very schematic, in terms of forcing people to buy same survivability items i belive that they are a thing that makes the game more interesting. What would be the fun of playing/watching a game with a nukers who can kill smb whenever they want.
"ok i got my stun + ulti ready so i decide to kill you now"
When watching streams you can see many 20 hp juking in the trees and storys like that which in most cases wouldnt happen without vastements since any burst attempt would be always succesfull.
Yes you could argue that decreasing nuke dmg and changing vastement would be better but in my oppinion its not worth the time. I never heared anything like "god this guy cant be killed couz of this vastements" or "because of those damn vastements they need to gather and gank him at least with 3 people". During most of games you will rather hear: "god that pebbels burst is just too much", "nuking potential of midas is just too much for their heroes".
+Hon got some bigger problem with unbalanced heroes, ra/berzerker/gemini/nomad wtf ?
About spellshard, yep they are trash item. They should change them to lets say -8 magic armor but "cant put into negative". Would solve the vastements vs spellshard prob.
Last edited by Fen__; 02-06-2012 at 06:08 AM.
The real problem is that the item provides no enhanced gameplay - it just simply takes up a slot until the player needs to sell it for something better.
Make the +MA an active ability. Players won't be rewarded so highly simply by buying a cheap item and letting it take up a slot - instead, skill and awareness is rewarded for player and ganker.
@ Tescrin... the reason why people do NOT buy multiple vestments is that they do NOT stack. Otherwise, trust me, you'd see tanks running around with Boots, HotBL, 2 vestments pretty often...
On topic, Vestment is a necessary evil... its cost could go up to 600 gold without much impact but quite frankly, removing this cheap anti magic item can really change the dynamic of the game... We went from a bursty magic damage to a more tanky style with mixed bursty magic heroes... but nerfing this item will send heroes like pebbles who are already picked too often right back into the always picked scenario.
Who started this thread? Additionally, who approved this thread?
Second, why should an entire group of people have to adapt when the item clearly is too powerful for its own good? Look at the math and then come back to me. It provides far too much for what you pay and it scales.
It has nothing to do with DotA and HoN, the item is in fact worth more here BECAUSE of that burst, and so its value is worth even more than in DotA; yet it costs less.
Being condescending makes your points seem invalid, if you have nothing more to add to the discussion than your ad hominem attack on me; just stop.
The way we used to be together...
I don't mean lately, but before... It was real, wasn't it?
supports are often dirt poor in dota...remember theres no assist gold.
you cannot compare the price of things from hon to dota because of this!
i realize dotas versian provides a little more but supports have to buy courier and groups of 2 wards at a time. therefore 550 to help against a tiny or something requires more thought. supports are usually the targets of gankers. in hon i see 200 gpm on support regularily in 1700 bracket.
glowstones magic vests steamboots on glacius. just because its a pro support and knows how to not take farm,but grab some farm during periods he is able. this makes gankers useless.
gankers become less a viable metagame the higher mmr you go because players use the hon math better. (time management, pricepoints, assist gold, taunts)
Last edited by RagingGooz; 02-06-2012 at 11:44 PM.
It is important to note that nerfing the price point of mystic vestments would only effectively nerf supports.
All other roles in the game are designed to acquire farm for increased effectiveness, and if vestments are effective, then they will grab them even if the price is increased to drastic levels. Supports are those who will have greater difficulty acquiring the vestments; they cannot directly farm, and attaining a good GPM is generally a symptom of already winning.
They are already the primary target for many gankers, and making them more vulnerable by cost inhibitions will simply dreg them into holes that become constantly more difficult to climb out of. Even in situations where gankers cannot possibly gain access to the "support mines," the supports will either still face difficulties as gankers limit access to safe modes of farming/stalemates that deprive assist gold (which in turn makes them far more vulnerable in team fights) -- or it won't matter at all, because the supports will be winning if none of the aforementioned conditions are met.
The only healthy solution is one that requires a large investment of work; we should all be well aware of what it is (*cough* it involves damage ratios to vestments *cough*).
what would be wrong with nerfing support heros? all of the top heros by pick rate and ban rate are usually whatever support hero happens to be broken the most at any given time. I think this month its glacius and monarch isnt it? and then two months ago it was plague and myrmidon before they got changed.
Raising the costs of vestments would have the effect of buffing magic damage heroes who can are strong in the period before vestment purchases (many of whom are bursty) relative to all the other heroes, and nerfing supports relative to all the heroes that get more farm.
It seems to me like the issues with vestments are twofold. First of all, vestments are soooooooo good because they mitigate a good amount of damage for a low price. Second, vestments are soooooooo good because right now in most games all heroes can expect to encounter huge amounts of magic damage, which they cannot otherwise survive. I think this second part is the key.
Huge burst magic damage on low cooldown abilities (I just mean useable every fight here) necessitates squishy heroes have magic armor to survive, and that tanky heroes have magic armor in order to stay in fights. If the problem with vestments is that they're too common, then either we need an alternative item, or else low-medium cooldown magic damage needs to be toned down (I suspect that few people buy vestments solely to counter magmus ultimate, or plague ultimate). This would have other effects also though. Primarily, it would make ganking carries much more difficult, and we would expect to see a rise of boring rice-fest games.
I guess the point of this long post (it started out simply to point out that OP plague/monarch/glacius doesn't mean supports need a nerf across the board) is that before we go off saying "Everyone buys vestments, and they take away variety from gameplay," we should seriously consider the direct and indirect effects of any action that's taken in balance. (If anyone from s2 is reading this, I'm a mathematician, and if you want to share a bunch of your data such as average damage done per hero per game, and damage type, and win rate, etc I'd love to go over it and try and find some trends, and make some models to see what a few balance changes might do).
Why are people talking about their own SUGGESTIONS to a board that's goal is to discuss PROBLEMS and let the men upstairs figure out the best way to fix it.
Mystic Vestements are a problem because heroes have been balanced around the fact they are cheap as hell to get. It's very very common to confuse an item to be broken when in fact it could be the hero pool that is the real concern.
The problem is what I stated:We dont have another way to counter Magic Damage.Deal with it.It ONE core item,that has a build up.The price of it,is another issue on its own,maybe it need a higher cost but this isnt the actual problem.