Actually, reading this thread has made me wonder something.
Is Soulstealer a good baseline for this game to get balanced to?
It's obvious the game has been balanced above him. I would say Valk, which many people cite as a 'baseline' (which I feel it is too high), is better than him, if not entirely due to stun + escape, but Soulstealer clearly has been left in the dust.
I don't know for sure, but I feel like at least using Soulstealer as a baseline would be better than valk. Extremely high faming capacity on a midgame/semi-hard/whatever carry (gets beaten by hard carries, but he's realllllly good), but no disables, and he's flimsy.
I like where SS is. I feel he is a very solid hero, with benefits and flaws, bit it's obvious he's under the par right now. Dota took to buffing him, I don't like that idea.
His stat gains are fine! I however never play the hero because of his none-survival ability.
You simply have to DOMINATE to win, which not always go your way.
As a pro carry player I must say there are so many better heroes to simple be able to evade ganks which SS can NOT.
What I'm saying is you always need full map control even though you're busy farming.
To me SS ulti and/or skillset is rather strange.
I mean Great DPS abilities ALSO Great NUKES, he clearly needs his SH for survival that's for sure.
Again, if you dominate, you will have FUN, if not, then the game is beyond hopeless.
S2 hero (to the best of my knowledge), and a bunch of other dota heroes I don't have enough experience with to mention one way or the other.
Compared to heroes that came before, this new generation of hero is balanced around valkyrie as a super generalist, whereas previous heroes generally were very focused on one specific task, and had a corresponding weakness. Newer heroes, especially S2's heroes, forsake having a defined weakness, and have a large array of tools, whether they're fit for the role the hero has or not.
Maybe its time to look on ss as a side lane carry hero. Many can laugh but when you look at his skillset hes fine on almost every short lane. lvl 3 easy to land 300 nuke dmg is rly strong lvl 5 450 dmg even better, with gathered souls you got nice last hitting ability and the potential to harass enemy heroes(+dmg + great attack animation).
At the same time i dont get it why everyone ignores ss -armor aura. In my oppinion -armor skills are one of best in current metagame. With the -armor items getting chipper "everyday" to the point when -16 armor on ss costs 6.6k gold <= thats a great carry potential in my oppinion. Sure he will be lacking hp but with mightyblade worth 1k he will get that 1.2 k hp level reasonable fast so he wont be such a feedbag.
No escape mechanism ? well ye tought life but if you went -armor route with mightyblade and vastements, you can withstand almost every solo gank killing opposite enemy on 2-3 hits, and if your being ganked by more people well ... even stun + slow combination wouldnt probably help you. In my oppinion times of ss as a mid hero are a bit outdated couz of new game strat, but ss as a sidelane hard carry being supported by rest of team is accomplishable. Wish smb would made jera mid, ss going for steam, mightyblade sb + bulwark sidelane strat. On paper, magic immune hero killing enemys on max 4 hits till like 30 minute mark sounds like a lot of fun
Last edited by Fen__; 02-01-2012 at 06:55 AM.
how is Monarch NOT a generalist. If you tried to design a skill set that'd make the most "generally useful" support hero possible (that is, while not being completely broken), you'd be hard-pressed to rival Monarch.
Last edited by Antimodus; 02-01-2012 at 09:15 AM.
"Proclamation was made, in the King's Name, for all Persons to keep Silence" - House of Lords Journal, Volume 20, 24 June 1717
So now we are not only having generalist heroes but generalist support heroes too? Whats next? Generalist pusher? Generalist Carry?
What ever, I think you guys are losing the focus of the discussion...
The only issue of this hero is an unnecessary nerf + suffering of powercreeping + suffering of 'best item' not giving survivability anymore (went from FWS + Geo to Shield Breaker). The sum of this sent this hero in the trash box, a bit like SW went into the trash box the day illusions stopped propagating orb effects.
He has many problems in HoN as opposed to SF in DotA. Having terrible move speed and no slow is only the tip of the iceberg.
A carry who's only true steroid gets worse and worse as the game progresses is a designed hybrid between spell user and autoattacker. This bring us to his first point; spells. He has a massive cast time to Dmeon Hands and to Soul Burst, usually eating his time which he could spend to auto. Yes we all know that demon Hands deal very high damage for their cost, but the cast time is atrocious. He loses far too much time positioning and attacking during this.
Soul Burst suffers in the same regard. The cast time is far too high. There was a time when it was lower, but as it stands now it has too much risk for the reward.
Thats what it boils down to, SS has high risk but not a high enough reward. His strength used to be farming super fast and getting lategame items 10-15 minutes earlier than his competitors, now that is not the case, he has no real strength outside of his skill-shot and stoppable magic damage.
He needs some buffs because he has been left in the dust. Keeping him as a risk/reward hero is not the route to go, as he doesn't compete anymore in that regard. Making him more of a caster/attacker hybrid can be more effective.
Demon Hands cast speed +
Demon Hands mana cost -5 (Revert the old nerf)
Soul Burst Cast Speed Up
Soul Burst debuff now increased on higher levels 20/28/35%
Move Speed + 5-10
Agility Growth +0.8-1.0
Reasons: By increasing his cast speed you can keep him relevant mid game, where he is supposed to shine. The Move Speed in conjunction with the cast speed buff can assist him in survivability and positioning, as he normally is in the centre of attention due to his ultimate (alittle bit but still relevant to note). Agility growth would allow him to have much more effective auto attacks and allow him to maintain some carry potential as the souls become less and less relevant to his damage. Soul Burst buff is to provide him with more incentive to set off better ultimates and even forsake some auto damage for positioning and survivability.
He is the premier victim of power creep (with TB right behind) and other people need to be dragged down or he needs a helping hand to get back up. His biggest strength is now shared by 5-10 less risky heroes and thats what hurts him the most.
And where Nyarlathotep went, rest vanished; for the small hours were rent with the screams of nightmare.
Nightmare was nothing compared to the true horror, the crawling chaos peering into our hearts and simply whispering, 'Join me'.
The question really is, should we buff SS to match everyone else, or should we nerf everyone else to match SS?
I disagree Greger, SS will not be good again in his current form. The nerf he received to the cast time of his ultimate was unjustified, the mana cost raise on hands was also unjustified and the nerf to FWS / GEO (Which was justified) hurt him hard as he isn't as mobile as his counter friends Valk and Silhouette and FA in the sens that he needs to be in the middle of the fight to be efficient.
Overall, this hero probably has a similar powerlevel to heroes like Madman, Scout, Moon Queen and so on... They all have potential but the risk of picking them just is virtually never worth the reward.
PS: no, scout isn't as bad as people make him sound, the hero has potential, just not enough compared to ranged carries or tanky semi carries.
Madman is better than you think, he's been picked along with (surprise!) Jeraziah and done really well. He's a mobile carry and what does mobile carries need? Immunity.
Anyways, SS has been played even with the longer cast time on ult. He was best during the trilane "era" and together with -armor trilane setups with that. Trilanes aren't played in the sense any longer that you can expect the other team to most likely trilane themselves.
I guess that "proves" that he's bad now, and if that's the case perhaps nerf reverts would be good. He really isn't that bad though, he was played in DHW with success.
Stats are like women in bikinis, they are interesting to look at however they don't show you everything.
Personally, I am a huge fan of S2's recent designs (with one glaring exception ) but I believe they are a little too strong. SS is a hero I always remembered being broken as **** (but it's been a while since I've actively followed the comp scene). I really think that some heroes should get well-deserved nerfs, and then we can see SS blossom again.
He doesn't need any more survivability, movement speed, turnrate or any of that. He makes up for that by doing more damage than anyone else early-midgame and farming like a monster. This thread goes hand in hand with the other thread about the balancing standard, so I believe the problem is not within SS, but with the rest of the pack.
Madman got more than enough of that little something Only prob is that they dont show him on honcast + playing him is somewhat boring. But in terms of versitile/strong carry he got all you can dream off, free crit, invis, disjointing slow, huge a.speed and speed boost, even bigger speed boost from stalk :P hes like a top tier carry having almost no weaknesess.
Tbh i wouldnt take away flash farming from the game. Im playing hon since closed beta and i remember old games, sitting in forest half a game, need to last hit every single creep. Farming on a carry was completly boring and retarded. In nowa days farming on heroes like ra is quiet a good fun. With some finesse and good ideas you can increase your farm exponentially and have great fun from jumping on all over the map, raping 1 creep wave with stun than blink with activated ignite to another spot and finish it all by PoDoing threw cliff to get to last stack made farming a bit more interesting. Yes its op, but if some change would be made to flash farming i would rather prefer to make it more common than rare. Who wants to rightclick neutrals for 15min with chronos ?
Give ss more movement speed and hes fine.
My opinion is that SS is in the right place as of this last patch. However, I agree also that he isn't the most viable pick at the moment. One can argue due to meta game or the new heroes that farm twice as fast that he has lost his effectiveness.
I would like to purpose another reason that encompasses the above and exposure. SS is one of the older heroes of Newerth he, like many, has been on every discussion board and competitive players top played list. Due to this exposure, the general HON community, being as intellectual as they are, knows his strengths and flaws.
One might say that when you see a SS you say to your self "gank early, often... Profit" because of his EXTREME weakness to early ganks, but also later ganks (more so than other heroes). Sure we say "Gank Early" about others as well and they can be sometimes be kept at bay if this rule is followed. But this exposure has lead also to this mandatory build to make up for weaknesses that both solve mobility and the incoming damage to his squishy figure, but I like what Xenganth says:
I'm merely saying this hero isn't weak, he has been figured out and balanced properly and requires others to complete task. Don't buff his escape methods, raise his armor or give him anymore stun/slow because then we just have more . Everyone knows SS and his capabilities strengths and weaknesses. What we should talk about is why other heroes don't have them... besides the beginning 5 min window to gank them...
My five cent: I think, at the moment, that there are far too many heroes with a high movespeed, or some form of mobility skill. The heroes with a low movespeed, are pretty much either "outdated" and unpopular Dota heroes like Andro and SR, or a few heroes who either gain movement speed from skills (Rampage, Defiler) or have powerful slows (Devo, EW.)
Cause of that, I'm against any change to SS' mobility or movespeed; and since the problem isn't that he doesn't carry hard enough or lack damage, I don't think a stat increase is the right solution.
What I'd like to see is a revert on the manacost on Hands nerf, not because I think it gave him mana issues, but because he has already lost title of farming king and didn't deserve that nerf.
More importantly though, I think (drastically) reducing the cast times on both Hands and his ult would be an elegant way of buffing him. Soulstealer is after all one of the few heroes who can't cast anything while attacked by a Hellfire'ing Pharaoh for example, and such a change would really make his transition between a nuker and a carry more seamless, without fundamentally altering his nature.
I like the fact that there are actually more than four heros that are allowed to be mid nowadays. the game wasn't very fun when ss was considered the baseline for balance and the only heros you were allowed to play mid were ss bubbles and hag. any other hero seeing play got nerfed.
that being said, soul stealer has been meta'd out by new hero designs. he is in the defiler position now where he requires a dominant early game to even stand a chance, and because of this most people simply don't fear him as a pick