[2.5.8] Lord Salforis

[[IaF]Skyve]

Nobody is saying that the nuke isn't strong early - it's just not feasible on Salforis because he can't support the spells manacost.

[[moo]Rayne_Mayne]

Nobody is saying that the nuke isn't strong early - it's just not feasible on Salforis because he can't support the spells manacost.

Only if you spam it on creeps all the time. Salf can easily cast MC 2-3 times before going oom. And that is why you get a battery and bottle and chalice. If you still have mana issues with those 3 items then you have clearly never played dota and started playing Hon with the expectation that all heroes should have mana to spam all their spells all the time.

Holy crap! A hero that requires you to think about mana where did that concept come from ??????

Literally everytime I or any of my friends has picked this hero (i know, anecdotal evidence of pub games vs bad players, not really a great argument) MC gets tons of kills. I wont say that hes got a ton of mana. But he certainly does fine with his current mana pool if you know what you are doing.

[[IaF]Skyve]

Only if you spam it on creeps all the time. Salf can easily cast MC 2-3 times before going oom. And that is why you get a battery and bottle and chalice.

A hero with a 4 second cooldown AoE nuke should be able to spam it on creeps (ever heard of pushing?) because else there's no point in giving it that low of a cooldown in the first place.
You also shouldn't always have to be on 100% mana if you want to gank someone.
You also won't be using 2-3 Mors Certissima if you want to use your ultimate.
You also won't be able to gank more than once if every gank drops your mana to 0 while forcing you to use consumeables.

It's a good skill on the wrong hero. Pugna had a use for the low cooldown nuke. Pugna had twice the int gain Salf had. Salf doesn't have a use for the low CD nuke, because by the time he would be able to actively start using it the damage of the skill becomes insignificant already anyways.

[[BETA]Leebo]

A hero with a 4 second cooldown AoE nuke should be able to spam it on creeps (ever heard of pushing?) because else there's no point in giving it that low of a cooldown in the first place.
You also shouldn't always have to be on 100% mana if you want to gank someone.
You also won't be using 2-3 Mors Certissima if you want to use your ultimate.
You also won't be able to gank more than once if every gank drops your mana to 0 while forcing you to use consumeables.

It's a good skill on the wrong hero. Pugna had a use for the low cooldown nuke. Pugna had twice the int gain Salf had. Salf doesn't have a use for the low CD nuke, because by the time he would be able to actively start using it the damage of the skill becomes insignificant already anyways.

Salforis is not a ganker. Salforis is not a carry. Stop trying to play him that way. Put him in a lane and farm the crap out of it/dominate for 15 minutes and then start tanking team fights with your helm/vestments/armor boots combo that you should easily have. You can use mid for this purpose but make sure your team understands that you will not be ganking for them but simply ricing away till you have some core tank items.

Win some early teamfights and build a mock. Salforis shines as tanky AOE damage who can shut down a carry/healer combo with his ult.

[[IaF]Skyve]

If you are going to play him as a tanky carry, why not use Zephyr or Amun Ra? >_>

[[moo]Rayne_Mayne]

A hero with a 4 second cooldown AoE nuke should be able to spam it on creeps (ever heard of pushing?) because else there's no point in giving it that low of a cooldown in the first place.
You also shouldn't always have to be on 100% mana if you want to gank someone.
You also won't be using 2-3 Mors Certissima if you want to use your ultimate.

I'm sorry but you are wrong. Where did you get the notion that because the nuke has a short cd it has to be usable as a pushing tool? personally im ****ing glad you cant push with it effectively because too many heroes can clear creep waves like its nothing. MC is a burst dmg spell used for fighting heroes. I JUST played a game as salforis if you want to look up my recent games and see me get FB with MC. Being able to back to back it in a short timeframe is great for getting kills.

Spamming chalice keeps your mana up easily. Lifetap for hp. Its so simple. Do you have any experience trying what im actually saying because it doesnt seem like you do.

[[HLN]OJPhoenix]

No hero with the capacity to Nuke creeps down for the purpose of pushing has enough mana to sustain it, no matter what the cooldown is, with their own mana pool, I'm thinking and in particular here, they need items.

is no different, if you want to spam that nuke you need to go get some serious mana regeneration, go buy a :Hellflower: or something. I've been testing things out lately and finding an early :RingOfTheTeacher: and then :chal: sustain me fairly well into mid game where I'm still deciding what core items to go for that give me output and mana. I need to keep testing and try getting :HarkonsBlade: to see if it fills the niche I'm looking for, I hope so because I love that item.

[[CID]masterprtzl]

Harkons on a hero that already has mana problems and needs to be built like a tank for his main purpose to be fulfilled? I don't see how that is in any way viable, not insulting the bracket, just saying just about anything can "work" at the 1500 bracket.

Btw this isn't the account I play on any more, havent touched the game since the squish with this account, check mstrprtzl, currently 1713, was 1800 presquish.

[[GR]XFlame]

And what exactly is his role, would you say?

[[HLN]OJPhoenix]

I'm fairly certain is a Ganker hero but also a Nuker to some extent. He can unload a lot of damage in a short period of time taking his opponent by surprise, much like a Ganker, as well as abilities that make for good chasing.

He's not an initiator per say, but by Ganker extension anyone who can take a hero out of the picture can be useful for initiating a fight, but its not his primary role, Ganking is. For that reason :HarkonsBlade: increases his role, the capacity to Gank via unleashing a lot of Magic Damage. Still testing it though and I am in the 1500 bracket *shrug*

[[IaF]Skyve]

I'm sorry but you are wrong. Where did you get the notion that because the nuke has a short cd it has to be usable as a pushing tool? personally im ****ing glad you cant push with it effectively because too many heroes can clear creep waves like its nothing. MC is a burst dmg spell used for fighting heroes. I JUST played a game as salforis if you want to look up my recent games and see me get FB with MC. Being able to back to back it in a short timeframe is great for getting kills.

Spamming chalice keeps your mana up easily. Lifetap for hp. Its so simple. Do you have any experience trying what im actually saying because it doesnt seem like you do.

If you have to lifetap after losing chalice you only get 50% of the mana necessary for MC.
Also if MC didn't have a cooldown that low it wouldn't have to heal its own damage back.

[[CID]masterprtzl]

And what exactly is his role, would you say?

He can be played as a tanky carry / semi initiation (like balph) get people to init on you, so your team can counter init. His aura does tons of damage and since its true damage, doesn't lose that much of its effectiveness as the game goes on. 50 true damage per second is nuts if you can get people alone, an amazing cleanup tool.

He can jungle, tower dive when he gets a helm, his life tap being an instant slow helps chase in ganks, but if you are building his Q and W then he loses his amazing aura.

The way I have played him is max his aura and his life tap and get his Q later when you have the mana to spam it more than twice in a fight.

[FistingTim3]

Well to the suggestion that his Q gets decreased mana cost, doesnt this take away from the point of the ability? It seems to be designed to mostly only be casted as killing blow, rather than to spam it constantly.
Maybe his Q could be changed to true damage, and damage rebalanced slightly on it. This would make it scale much better, turning salforis into the midgame hero he seems to be designed as.

[[Loli]N`Hydrolisk]

His skill is meant to be spammed, because it has an insanely short cooldown and its regeneration does not stack, making repeated casts of MC on a single target more effective than one cast alone. It's especially meant to be spammed against someone LS has used The Undying on.

[[HLN]OJPhoenix]

His skill is meant to be spammed, because it has an insanely short cooldown and its regeneration does not stack, making repeated casts of MC on a single target more effective than one cast alone. It's especially meant to be spammed against someone LS has used The Undying on.

What? Unless you have multiple on your team, or you built a :RestorationStone: you can't use multiple MC on a single target at the same time for the regeneration to or not to stack anyway...

But yes I do agree that it is meant to be spammed, this is why I like to build mana items on him instead of building tank or carry, what good is being able to stick around longer if you're "spammable" nuked can't be spammed... build to his strengths, enhance his capacity to unload into your opponent. If you aren't going to do that, don't complain about not being able to spam it?

I'm finding to be relatively balanced, he does his job as a Ganker / Chaser reasonably effectively, focusing more on taking his opponent out rather than stopping them with disables, he uses other tools. His ult is pretty good at getting a hero that might get away from you and doesn't have much left, it does quite a reasonable amount of damage and they wont be able to heal to save themselves.

He's just not as good at doing many things like some of the other EA heroes that have come out and thus looks weaker than them, but in terms of balance I think sits reasonably well

[[CID]masterprtzl]

If you are going to play him as a tanky carry, why not use Zephyr or Amun Ra? >_>

Because they arent always available? Not every hero has to be top tier competitive quality. Ra and Zephyr are common bans in BP and BD, and dont always show up in SD.

[[Loli]N`Hydrolisk]

Yea, I suppose in practical terms (with animation times and targeting and actually hitting the enemy), MC's regen will never be refreshsed anyway. My bad.

I'd say some easy buffs would be to set the amount healed to a % of what is dealt, and increase the time needed to recover the healed amount.

[[IaF]Skyve]

Because they arent always available? Not every hero has to be top tier competitive quality. Ra and Zephyr are common bans in BP and BD, and dont always show up in SD.

Actually every hero should be top-tier competitively viable. Or at least on the same level. Tjat's kinda the goal of balancing.

[[CID]masterprtzl]

Actually every hero should be top-tier competitively viable. Or at least on the same level. Tjat's kinda the goal of balancing.

I have no idea where you got that false information... There will ALWAYS be the most effective line ups and heroes and currently, there are heroes that will never fit competitive play, like blood hunter for example.

[Herbert_West]

That doesn't mean that the GOAL shouldn't be that every hero/item/whatever is viable. If you had the choice of either making everything in the game viable or only having 50-70% of everything viable and the rest staying forever as pubtrash, you'd be DAMN STUPID to not chose the first option.

I'm not saying it's realistically possible to balance everything perfectly, but it's still the goal. Please.