[2.5.8] Lord Salforis

[[iAPM]DaPPa]

These numbers are all fine for the hero's current mana costs/mana pool. At one, the hero can't use Life Tap more than 3 times without running out. Complaining that it can be spammed is a foolish endeavor..

I'm sorry but what?

He can only use life tap 3 times until he runs out of mana? what, is that lvl 1 life tap without any +stats using it 3 times consecutively? When does that ever happen? (never, as I'm about to prove)

At level 1, without ANY items, you can use it 4 TIMES IN A ROW, that's literally without waiting a second inbetween cooldowns, you're never going to need to use it that many times at level 1, are you?

At level 3, you can use it 8 TIMES IN A ROW, without leaving a second inbetween cooldown refresh.

At level 5, with life tap@ level 3, you can use it 9 TIMES IN A ROW, by this point you will probably have a blood chalice, and all of this was without considering mana potions - And the obvious fact that nobody will be using them consecutively, the mana regen in-lane will mean he can spam it MUCH more.

Being realistic, at level 5 with level 3 LT, a Blood Chalice, and 2 Mana potions up over the duration, you can use lifetap well over 20 times consecutively, literally IN A ROW without waiting inbetween cooldowns, in REALITY you're never going to run out of mana, and therefore an endless return in health, giving you incredible longevity and not to mention the killing potential the ability possesses.

So before you start to call people "foolish" for saying he can spam life tap, maybe you should use numbers to back up ALL of your claims, not just the ones you advocate.

(using your numbers...)
80 x 4 = 320 HP return at hero level 1, that's half his health pool.

110 x 8 = 880 HP return at hero level 3..

145 x 9 = 1305 HP return at hero level 5, again these are not taking mana return items and passive regen into account.

Take into consideration this applies a fairly strong slow, resets your autoattack, AND deals bonus damage?

Sounds to me like too many people in this thread are enjoying the stomp with salf and ignoring the balance, again just my opinion.

[[IaF]Skyve]

Helm --> Frostfield or kuldra is good on salf to cover his major mana problem with Q.

By the time you get your FFP or Kuldra the damage of your Mors Certissima is barely important anymore.

[Beroya]

@DaPPa

At level one, the hero has 260 mana and it costs 70 mana. LS has a base mana regen of 0.81. With a 7 second cooldown, that gives 21 seconds between the first cast and the fourth, which would allow 17 mana to regen, which is 3 mana short of a fourth chain cast. So no, you're wrong about four chain casts.

Anyways, This is over 21 seconds, is melee range, and is still countered by being more than 400 units away from salforis when he casts life tap suggesting the target is running away with at least 300 movement speed and salforis did not pick up marchers and there are no accompanying slows/stuns to support LS. (Equation: ~185 range due to model size and attack range plus 40 units per second for up to 5 seconds or 200.)

If you're complaining that it allows the hero to stay in the lane and resist some harassment, maybe the problem is you're not harassing the salforis enough, or perhaps your lane combination was not properly chosen to beat a lane that can heal themselves.

I won't go into the fallacies of calling an effective PBAoE 20% slow for two seconds strong. Especially on a hero with 290 base movement speed.

[TRYTROUSERS]

id say that after the lifetap change hes probably the best s2 design in a while.

tanks pretty well, but needs items to do it and doesn't have a cliff jump or blink to allow him to play like a complete moron.

does high damage early on, but actually has to *gasp* conserve mana which half of the pool does not have to anymore

ultimate counters specific heros, instead of an entire class of heros (kraken ult im looking at you)

does pretty well early game, but tapers off late game.

plus, he has a pretty unique play style.

problem isn't salf, but the other s2 heros who still need to be toned down.

[[Loli]N`Hydrolisk]

As it turns out, LT does look pretty powerful.

I don't think it's cause for worry though.

In any case, I'm going to further analyze the skill by factoring in how much health it recovers over the course of all 4/8/9 strikes.

78/109/145/187 life recovered.
8/7/6/5 sec cooldown.
4/8/9/? strikes total before running out of mana

Equation:
HP * LTs / (Time * LTs)
= HP / Time

78 HP / 8 sec = 9.75 HP/sec

109 HP / 7 sec = 15.571428571428571428571428571429 HP/sec

145 HP / 6 sec = 24.166666666666666666666666666667 HP/sec

187 / ? sec = ? HP/sec

Growth from 9.75 to 15.571428571428571428571428571429 = x1.5970695970695970695970695970696 = ~+59.7%

Growth from 15.571428571428571428571428571429 to 24.166666666666666666666666666667 = x1.5519877675840978593272171253822 = ~+55.2%

So, as long as you have the mana and have a creep to attack, an LS' regen is less than (assuming imperfect timing between every cooldown due to animation, positioning, etc.) 9.75/15.57/24.17/?. However, this takes place over the duration of sec * LTs, i.e. 8 * 4 = 32 sec// 7 * 8 = 56 sec//6 * 9 = 54 sec/?.

DaPPa and Beroya produced the total health healed over however many LTs cast.

Hmmmm.

Honestly, I'd still say it's balanced. It looks strong, but it takes time and puts LS at risk of harassment. I acknowledge that Blood Hunter's Feast is situational, but it's also more powerful in its healing properties than LS' LT, and has no mana cost. I make this comparison because LS' LT is preferably used to last-hit a creep instead of pushing the lane, so they both "sort of" operate on a last-hit basis (when laning, anyway).

However, LS' LT differs from BH's Feast in that it is stronger the longer the fight is, whereas BH prefers faster, burst skirmishes to quickly regenerate large portions of HP.

I'd still say it's balanced considering LS' role and positioning in team fights.

[[iAPM]DaPPa]

Someone ACTUALLY deleted my post?

[[J4K]Snoww]

I've played salforis before and after the patch and the spammability of lifetap is really an issue. With a suitable lane partner you can really dominate/zone out the opposition easily. I've been reading through all the arguments here and I think we can all agree on two things, MC needs "something" and LT needs an increased mana cost.

What if MC did reduced damage, had no healing effect after but had a tapering slow (that increased per level in MC)? Before the rage about him raping with 2 slows let me explain.

As of right now it makes no sense to level MC, however, with the above change made it is conceivable that someone would want to have at least one rank in MC for the additional slow. Also, if LT's manacost were increased and MC's left the same, spammability wouldnt be an issue, salf wouldn't be able to go spam-happy. In addition, MC would be useful late-game and salf would have a better (more balanced) presence.

Anyhow I was just reading and thought it might be an interesting idea. Doing that would make his abilities not too op, they would synergize well with presence, he would have a good (balanced) presence throughout the game and it solves spammability issues (sort of, you would almost always want the double slow to get kills and you would burn a lot of mana doing a LT, MC, LT combo.)

The only problem I can see is that in a lot of cases it could be a guaranteed kill in the laning phase every time you have the mana.

TL;DR

Increase mana cost of LT. Reduce dmg, remove heal, add tapering slow to MC?

All thoughts are welcome this is my my first post so be gentle D:

[[ArG]InuYasha1988]

Well, let's talk with numbers:

Actually:

Mors Certissima:
Radius: 225
Mana: 100/110/120/140
Damage: 120/200/280/360
Heal Recovery: 40/60/80/100
Cooldown: 4 secs

Life Tap:
Mana: 70/60/50/40

--------------------------------------------------------

How it should be (Personal opinion):

Mors Certissima:
Radius: 250 (225 is quite little, boost it).
Mana: 140/120/110/100 (Turn upside down!)
Damage: 120/200/280/360 (This is ok)
Heal Recovery: 30/40/50/60 (Little less)
Cooldown: 6 secs (4 secs is not so good, will be a crazy skill to use)

Life Tap:
Mana: 40/50/60/70 (Turn upside down too!)

----------------------------------------------------------

Final conclusion: We get a Mors with a little better radius, high mana in first lvls (That makes it impossible to cast 2 times to gank, but good to KD) and good mana in lvl 4. 360 damage will become 300 in final numbers because of the heal recovery, and in a Strengh hero 100 mana is a lot (Maybe you see like "Omg a 360 damage with 100 mana? OMG OP!!!" but in a low mana pool (And increasing Life Tap mana req) you have to think it twice using this... you can go and kill but no mana for lifetap then you can get killed easy.

This will become Salforis a crazy hero to play, because u can select to be a crazy ganker nuker with mort, or a tank auto healer with lifetap. Late game the hero is balanced like everyone, his mort will be a normal spell (When all heroes have 1500/2000 life, it's not a problem a 300 damage).

[[Loli]N`Hydrolisk]

Well, let's talk with numbers:

Actually:

Mors Certissima:
Radius: 225
Mana: 100/110/120/140
Damage: 120/200/280/360
Heal Recovery: 40/60/80/100
Cooldown: 4 secs

Life Tap:
Mana: 70/60/50/40

--------------------------------------------------------

How it should be (Personal opinion):

Mors Certissima:
Radius: 250 (225 is quite little, boost it).
Mana: 140/120/110/100 (Turn upside down!)
Damage: 120/200/280/360 (This is ok)
Heal Recovery: 30/40/50/60 (Little less)
Cooldown: 6 secs (4 secs is not so good, will be a crazy skill to use)

Life Tap:
Mana: 40/50/60/70 (Turn upside down too!)

----------------------------------------------------------

Final conclusion: We get a Mors with a little better radius, high mana in first lvls (That makes it impossible to cast 2 times to gank, but good to KD) and good mana in lvl 4. 360 damage will become 300 in final numbers because of the heal recovery, and in a Strengh hero 100 mana is a lot (Maybe you see like "Omg a 360 damage with 100 mana? OMG OP!!!" but in a low mana pool (And increasing Life Tap mana req) you have to think it twice using this... you can go and kill but no mana for lifetap then you can get killed easy.

This will become Salforis a crazy hero to play, because u can select to be a crazy ganker nuker with mort, or a tank auto healer with lifetap. Late game the hero is balanced like everyone, his mort will be a normal spell (When all heroes have 1500/2000 life, it's not a problem a 300 damage).

Terrible idea, will ruin LS' mana pool mid-game (where he should be strongest) considering how much LT must be spammed.

EDIT:

Not to mention will make MC worse for earlygame. Although slightly better for midgame, overall, this is going to be an net increase in mana issues for LS early and midgame.

EDIT2:

ASDFRECOVERY -> A "LITTLE" LESS????

What are you trying to do, nerf him to uselessness?

EDIT3:

I think we need to consider at what stages of the game LS is/should be effective at. Presently, he's most effective in early to mid game, but tapers off a lot (very much so) in late game because almost nothing (if not nothing at all) about him scales. The only thing going for him is 100% negation of healing and regeneration on his ult.

I think that's fine, considering his role as an anti-healer/anti-tanky/lifestealing carry. He needs to be able to spam LT when his primary targets recover and have so much HP, and MC is an option to kill squishy supports, whereas Presence is an option to be able to duke it out against tanky/lifestealing carries.

[foxmindedguy]

Lord Salforis is fine. All his skills have great synergy with each other and well, he can become a very annoying unkillable sustained damage dealer later on. Hell even mid, unless you duo mid against him, not many people can keep him from farming away.

He is FINE where he is.

[[IaF]Skyve]

Lord Salforis is fine. All his skills have great synergy with each other and well, he can become a very annoying unkillable sustained damage dealer later on.

His Q and R have synergy with each other.
His W and E have synergy with each other.

But they don't have any overall synergy, and actually somewhat limit each other (you can't level Q early because otherwise you can't properly take advantage of the strength of W and E, but Q becomes really weak once heroes get some magic armor).

[[ArG]InuYasha1988]

I played Salforis latelty and ye... the lifetab is nice now... the only thing left is make a quite little better the q.

Just some less mana and less healing would be perfect. But the most important thing is the "DELAY" in casting the Q. It has a... 1 sec delay or something... i'm thinking in a 0 sec delay... just like 90% of the habilities... click = cast.

Example:

Actually:
Radius: 225
Mana: 100/110/120/140
Damage: 120/200/280/360
Heal Recovery: 40/60/80/100
Delay: 1 sec.

Changes:
Radius: 225
Mana: 90/90/100/110
Damage: 120/200/280/360
Heal Recovery: 20/30/50/70
Delay: 0 sec.

That would be fine... 30 less mana and 30 less recovery from heal... would be a perfect balance for this tank.

[[SKv]Medri]

Salf's W and E are just fine. W is spammable, even in the early game, but it's necessary for him to be able to catch up to fleeing heroes / run away. His ult is definitely as someone else put it, the silver bullet in his arsenal.

Q is really the only debatable part of Salforis. I understand it's use and synergy with his ult, but it seems almost useless to get. My normal build with Salf is to max E, W, Ult, and all stats. I completely forego Q, it just doesn't seem worth it.

However, when playing matches the only thing I find frustrating with him is the inability to slow / immobilize.

What if Q's damage was toned down to 50% of it's current output. Remove the target location and give it AoE around caster that adds a 10 / 15 / 20% movement slow.

[TRYTROUSERS]

I don't know how you can say his Q is useless. It's 360 aoe damage on a short cooldown, which is pretty devastating during the early portion of the game. Even with enormous farm you probably won't ever autoattack hit for that much.

Sure it costs a lot, but by nature it is designed as a finishing move (note the small heal given to opponents after a few seconds). Either way, I don't notice too many mana problems with lifetube + chalice once he gets a few levels.

[[STLI]Doomhammar]

IMO Lord Syphilis is getting in a good position.
But i feel that to make MC leveling early more desireable, it would be nice if the manacost and damage was lowered. So that it could fit in that spammable nuke role. Another good thing could be to MC to have some form of slow for the duration of the heal. Min-damage on aura should be increased a bit, or make it so that creeps around partly ignore damage split. S2 going in good direction, but i just hope they don't make him too good.

[[ArG]InuYasha1988]

IMO Lord Syphilis is getting in a good position.
But i feel that to make MC leveling early more desireable, it would be nice if the manacost and damage was lowered. So that it could fit in that spammable nuke role. Another good thing could be to MC to have some form of slow for the duration of the heal. Min-damage on aura should be increased a bit, or make it so that creeps around partly ignore damage split. S2 going in good direction, but i just hope they don't make him too good.

Omg that's a great idea.... make the aura troggle to just affect heroes, not creeps. So the damage only splits between enemy heroes not creeps. That would be FANTASTIC and really simple to do (and makes sense, i saw lot of auras that can be troggled to affect heroes / units). Great idea bro!.

[foxmindedguy]

Lord Salforis is very strong at the moment. Some of the buffs being suggested in this thread might tip him out of his current balanced form into an overpowered iteration of himself.

I am against any drastic buffs to Lord Salforis, and the only buff I can even consider at the moment is to perhaps make the minions heal back partial or no amount from Mors.

[Brannock]

At minimum Mors Certissma needs to heal based on damage done, not a flat number. I saw a Salforis nuke Chronos, who then rewound Mors, then got healed for 100 net gain.

[[ArG]InuYasha1988]

At minimum Mors Certissma needs to heal based on damage done, not a flat number. I saw a Salforis nuke Chronos, who then rewound Mors, then got healed for 100 net gain.

+1, this must be fixed, i consider it a bug.

Another thing is the magic defense thing, if you use the 360 dmg skill in a person that has magic defense... you can make less damage (like 200) and he heals 100... so... you waste 140 of mana to do only 100 dmg... senseless.

This thing and the change on the aura so you can put it to damage only heroes would be 2 simple changes that will balance Salforis perfectly and nothing more should be done.

[Voradorr]

Lord Salforis is balanced right know no need of buffs or nerfs. Good at early and mid game, late is team and item dependat.