Thread: [2.5.8] Reception

View Poll Results: Do you like the balance changes in the new patch?

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  • Awesome patch! DOGkaiser <3

    84 29.27%
  • Decent changes but not the ones I wanted to see

    131 45.64%
  • S2 suckz at balancing, mah grandma could do it better

    72 25.09%
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  1. #1
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    [2.5.8] Reception

    Opening a temporary thread that will be open for a couple of days until it is actually possible to asses the long-term effects on heroes and items that were touched. No threads will be opened until at least the weekend so don't even bother.

    Feel free to speculate and discuss (read: not trolling) anything regarding balance changes in the new patch.

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    Last edited by Ekamo; 01-25-2012 at 03:43 PM.
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  2. #2
    I would have expected bringing the **** tier heroes up a notch if they were going to leave most of the really strong heroes where they are at now.

  3. #3
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    I thought it did a good job of dealing with problem heroes, but probably could have been more thorough(especially with helping weak heroes out).

  4. #4
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    We saw good changes. There were no wtf-moments for me in this patch - but there were times when they went in the right direction but either walked too little, took a detour or both.

    (Colour was messed up from copying patch notes) For example, Engineer's change addresses nothing about the hero's flaws that keep him from being a serious pick. He's not useless, I played against him earlier today and his ultimate is pretty strong. What he needs is either a buff to his autoattack damage and range or to his turret because overall, he's too weak. The spider mine change does nothing to address this. That's just one example of where S2 could've done so much more than they did - it's almost like they're afraid of upsetting somebody by improving their heroes.

    That and other irrelevant changes like the +1 stats on Arachna, +30 mana cost on CD's conduit and MQ's +20 attack range buff make me wonder what S2 is trying to do with some of their changes. Are they actually looking to buff/nerf these heroes but for some reason don't or are they just adjusting things? Because we did see some heroes get more significant changes, Defiler for example (who still sucks though).

    All in all I think this patch got what it did right but it could've gone much farther, and really, it should have. And there are still the overpowered heroes that are just too good overall like for example Valk/Tort/Magmus/Polly/Plague. Such heroes weren't touched which is bad. Those heroes and their ilk are the Karma Houdinis of HoN.


    Overall S2 needs to man up with their changes and they need to do it real soon but at least they're doing what small balancing they're doing right now pretty well.
    Last edited by Salem1; 01-25-2012 at 04:41 PM.

  5. #5
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    for a "BIG BALANCE PATCH IN THE WORKS" it doesnt look like one.
    back in times we used to have such patches every week.
    if anything, this is "minor tweaking patch".

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  6. #6
    Very modest changes overall. Cant see why it should have taken 3 months (or more?) to make these changes.

    Dont like the gemini change and the hotbl nerf got a wierd approach but will be intresting to see how it plays out.

    The succubus change was a real suprise.... will be very intresting to see if she becomes a counter pick against heavy damage dealers (mk, tort, pebb ...)
    Gooby pls...

  7. #7
    I dislike minor stat tweaks as big balances. There were not enough changes that had me super giddy. The Martyr change was probably my favorite change.

    I think of big changes like the FA illusion ult and split fire change. The mechanic reworks of skills are entertaining and fresh.

    I will say though that it was a giant nerf patch which is always nice to prevent too much power creep.
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  8. #8
    feel same way as Rean. If this is S2's definition of 'big balance patch' than lol.

    Changes are fine but there simply are not enough considering the hype. Definitely more disappointed than satisfied.
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  9. #9
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    Would have liked to see more changes on the **** tier heroes like balph.

    Lots of minor changes like this are fine so you don't accidentally over tweak heroes, but such minor changes have to be reviewed and implemented more regularly to make sure you get the right mix. I remember back in the dota very early days, there'd be balance patches like this every week.
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rean View Post
    for a "BIG BALANCE PATCH IN THE WORKS" it doesnt look like one.
    back in times we used to have such patches every week.
    if anything, this is "minor tweaking patch".
    This. Not to say patching more rarely is a bad thing but if we get a balance patch once every 4 months this doesnt fill my expectations.

  11. #11
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    they release heroes that are making impact on current balance before they balance existing ones with each other.
    that is the huge problem.
    however, competitive is a joke alrdy since game went f2p.
    this game isnt about esport already, its about cash milking.
    Last edited by Rean; 01-25-2012 at 04:51 PM.

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  12. #12
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    In addition to what I wrote earlier I'd like to make a separate post to emphasise that the biggest mistake S2 can do now is to conclude that they need to do more and then sit back and think about it while doing nothing. This patch took too long already; I want to see more changes and I want to see them very soon. Deciphering what heroes could use balance changes isn't a puzzle, it's quite obvious to anyone who plays the game regularily.

    In this patch, S2 addressed heroes like Ra and Nomad with the HotBL change (even if I think some heroes like Nomad could use additional small nerfs so they don't just turn from being overpowered into being too good like *read on*) - now we need to address the old Karma Houdini heroes that have always been too good and are always picked like Magmus/Valk/Plague etc and the trash heroes like BH/SW/Geo etc.

  13. #13
    I too find it odd they didn't buff some heroes. I don't see why they can't look at the win percentages and go off of that to some degree.

    If you look at a Relative statistics those heros who have near 40/60 (and vice versa) win/loss ratios are at a MASSIVE advantage/disadvantage and obviously unbalanced. It can't ALL be the players as people are bound to figure out how to use them eventually; many of my favorite heroes are in that 45% win range and that's actually quite significant statistically.

    The relative difference of a 40% to 60% ratio is 50%; I.E. you have a 50% better chance of winning/losing with such a hero. Even at 45/55 you're at a relative 25% difference (4/9ths vs. 5/9ths)(Keep in mind, I'm only 1500ish, so by all means I'm not trying to sound like a guru)


    I get that you can't both buff and nerf heavy handedly or you'll simply have relatively overbuffed and overnerfed the heroes; all this accomplishes is who's better this time around. However, making such minor minor adjustments gives the illusion that something is being done without actually doing much tweaking.

    Sure, arachna gets an extra .5% damage reduction or something and an extra +1 damage; do we really expect that to change her laning presence? Her survivability? I'm not complaining about arachna, merely that the change isn't significant enough to change her in virtually any game. Hardly ever is there a gank/battle/game decided around the difference of that 5ish damage.

    I'm happy about the defiler buff as her armor was already so low that that ended up going from 6%ish to 10%ish; this is somewhat substantial! It can change the build from needing an early ring potentially.


    Anyway, I think they could be a little more ballsy/brazen about nerfs and buffs. If they don't want to piss people off by nerfing they may as well make others happy by making their less effective chars worth using.

  14. #14
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    lack of torturer changes and nerfs to other top tier heroes just makes torturer the same as he has been for the last 5 months in a top ban/first pick. i dont understand when creating a balance patch after 4 months. you would look at all the top bans, nerf them (im sure there are 100's of posts on the top banned heroes on the competitors forums) slightly to bring them out of perma ban. Then look at low tier heroes that never get picked (bomb, balph, pest, accursed, geomancer, sand wraith, empath, revenant, gladiator, night hound, tb, puppet , moon queen etc and then change these heroes atleast slightly.

    i dont see what could have take for 4 months in these balance changes sine 85% of them were added on january the 4th according to the leaked patch notes.

    my expectations to the hon competitive scene are: Tort/oph/fa/magebane/zeph/magmus/jera to all still be first ban first pick material with no low tier heroes breaking into the competitive scene except maybe aluna

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tescrin View Post
    I too find it odd they didn't buff some heroes. I don't see why they can't look at the win percentages and go off of that to some degree.

    If you look at a Relative statistics those heros who have near 40/60 (and vice versa) win/loss ratios are at a MASSIVE advantage/disadvantage and obviously unbalanced. It can't ALL be the players as people are bound to figure out how to use them eventually; many of my favorite heroes are in that 45% win range and that's actually quite significant statistically.

    The relative difference of a 40% to 60% ratio is 50%; I.E. you have a 50% better chance of winning/losing with such a hero. Even at 45/55 you're at a relative 25% difference (4/9ths vs. 5/9ths)(Keep in mind, I'm only 1500ish, so by all means I'm not trying to sound like a guru)


    I get that you can't both buff and nerf heavy handedly or you'll simply have relatively overbuffed and overnerfed the heroes; all this accomplishes is who's better this time around. However, making such minor minor adjustments gives the illusion that something is being done without actually doing much tweaking.

    Sure, arachna gets an extra .5% damage reduction or something and an extra +1 damage; do we really expect that to change her laning presence? Her survivability? I'm not complaining about arachna, merely that the change isn't significant enough to change her in virtually any game. Hardly ever is there a gank/battle/game decided around the difference of that 5ish damage.

    I'm happy about the defiler buff as her armor was already so low that that ended up going from 6%ish to 10%ish; this is somewhat substantial! It can change the build from needing an early ring potentially.


    Anyway, I think they could be a little more ballsy/brazen about nerfs and buffs. If they don't want to piss people off by nerfing they may as well make others happy by making their less effective chars worth using.
    i agree with your last statement, the game becomes stale if everything stays the same. thats why when dota gets a patch its like a whole new game like 50 heroes get major changes and it changes how you play the game.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Rean View Post
    they release heroes that are making impact on current balance before they balance existing ones with each other.
    that is the huge problem.
    however, competitive is a joke alrdy since game went f2p.
    this game isnt about esport already, its about cash milking.
    What part of this is about balance this section isn't for bull **** like this. They already addressed tanky DPS heroes with the helm nerf and its substantial they need time to work out how this ITEM nerf affects tanky dps heroes not just nerf tanky dps heroes and nerf core items too.

  17. #17
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    Overall decent changes, some funky ones like +1 stats to Arachna and **** that sure are buffs but I dunno.

    Some changes I don't agree with, but one can't agree with everything. Will be good to see a change I suppose.
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  18. #18
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    Patch sucked. Only good changes were the Flux, Gemini, Midas, Succubus, and Soul Reaper ones. Electrician got murdered horribly, as did Tremble, Legionnaire Nomad, and Zephyr. Electrician especially.
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  19. #19
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    No Maliken changes. Sad me. Idc if it was a buff or nerf

  20. #20
    Gemini change was stupid. Now he has to spend time farming to get the EXP to even compete when by that time other heroes could be doing the same amount of work if not more.

    Soul Reaper change did nothing. changing mana costs by 5 and slightly increasing Aura range doesn't actually solve his main problems. It's like changing the starting stats on a hero by 2...why?

    Not much happened this patch except for HotBL/SB change, Midas, Succubus, Geomancer, and Electrician...possibly Zephyr.

    EDIT: Forgot the item changes. Storm Spirit was pretty well done, actually. Buff for offensive use, nerf for defensive use.
    Last edited by triplej; 01-25-2012 at 06:06 PM.

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