No. (Please state why)
Hi peeps ! Thought I'd start doing overhauls for HoN heroes. I've figured out a growing number of people browsing the forums are getting interested in hero design. People used to stuck with the flawed logic "hero works in-game => he's fine". That's at best mediocre when you want to be the best game around. Design depth is key for a proper hero concept. I'd say lore is as well but all those alt avatars made the effort superfluous. Niches should be unique. For those who don't get what a niche is :
It could commonly be defined by a combination of attack range, statistics or more concrete things such as a role and a "core-idea" which answers those two questions :
" Is there a specific playstyle people adopt using the hero ?"
" Are there any specific mechanics unique to that hero ?"
Please understand the following : Heroes might be used often competitively, there's still no point denying possible improvements if the latter is about to make the hero better conceptually. Balancing happens afterwards.
Now, enjoy the read (no Tl;dr. You're supposed to have been through reading classes.).
I gonna cover Accursed in this overhaul.
- Non-existant synergy between Sear and his skillset/playstyle. Requirements (physical attacks) do not fit a melee hero lacking mobility.
- Ulti effectiveness relies too much on opponents' stupidity. Cauterize self-dmg is not enough to make up for it.
Niche : Melee STR hero exploiting his own high survivability to keep his allies alive thanks to powerful defensive spells. Uses additional health costs.
I tried to give his core-concept some more depth and internal synergy. Can force Shield detonation with more ease if cast on-self. Flame Consumption activation shall never be a waste anymore (except if disabled) thanks to the new health cost. Also, Flaming Strikes buff can now be applied right at the start of a team-fight without having him to hit that hasted/blinking fag.
Action/Type : Aura.
Accursed mere presence sears his foes applying the Sear debuff on them. Any ally that attacks the affected unit will be buffed with Burning Strikes. Additionally, he can extend the aura at will using his own health, applying a movement slow around him.
Range : 350/650 when extended.
Cooldown : 6 seconds.
Health cost : 2%/3%/4%/5% Max Health/second. (Uses true damage). Can't be used if below 10% Max Health.
Sear effects : 5/10/15/20% Movement Slow (Only when extended). Applies Burning Strikes to the attacker for 2 seconds.
Burning Strikes : 10/20/30/40 Attack Speed. 10% Movement Speed.
Visuals : Flame tongues should spread around Accursed when the aura is extended.
Vote and discuss.
Consider numbers lightly (testing makes those) - Focus on the concept.
Last edited by YoJ; 01-15-2012 at 04:57 AM.
Agree with the concept, though this brings Accursed even more in-line with what Jeraziah already is. The exception being he pretty much has an inferior ult.
I think to give Accursed his own niche, he should play like a hyper-aggressive version of Jeraziah. This already seems to be in place to some degree, I just think it should be emphasized. Here are some of my thoughts... pure brainstorm, I haven't considered the balance of anything that follows:
Jera Heal vs Cauterize
Both abilities are heals than can double as nukes to the enemy. The "aggressive tilt" favors Accursed in that you're able to directly target enemies with it, as opposed to Jera's more defensive ally-heal. Perhaps Cauterize does +x% damage to enemies affected by Sear, or recently hit by a Fire Shield explosion?
Jera Shield vs Fire Shield
Magic immunity vs physical immunity. Both remove debuffs. Jera's lasts longer, but Accursed's can explode for damage. I think Fire Shield is well balanced in comparison to the Magic Shell thingie.
Righteous Aura vs Sear
I think that the proposed change to Sear in the OP is a great way to bring it up to par with Jera's aura... I also feel that Sear in it's current implementation is underwhelming.
Jera Ult vs Accursed Ult
Not much to point out here... Jera's is a guaranteed heal that affects the entire team. Were it not for Accursed's also blocking magic damage, Jera's would be strictly better by every metric. Perhaps, in addition to Sear being an activated ability that causes self-damage, add something in to Accursed's ult that says "Damage done to self heals for 1.5x/2x/2.5x"
Anyways, these are just my thoughts. As it stands, I find very few reasons to pick Accursed over Jera (I guess he's less item dependent? idk)
Last edited by Valtieri; 01-13-2012 at 01:32 PM.
"The game knows no rules of "honor" or of "cheapness." The game only knows winning and losing." ~David Sirlin
My Guide to playing HoN drunk: http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/showthread.php?t=342081
The concept of self-inflicting damage would be very favorable to Accursed. It has to be self-damage though, not direct hp removal (typo?).
Direct hp removal means that magic armor ain't taken into account so numbers ain't reduced while healing with Flame Consumption.
That was another reason which had me going with that rework. I do plan on reworking Jeraziah's own aura a bit so they both differ further. Jera's anti-carry sub-role (ulti) could be focused on.I think to give Accursed his own niche, he should play like a hyper-aggressive version of Jeraziah.
Not a fan of your Cauterize suggestion. I'd like to avoid forced synergy as much as possible. I do like the idea of scaling heal properties on Flame Consumption though. Might add it when I got time.
I dont believe Cauterize should be touched in any way (and Fire Shield for that matter). Glad OP thinks so too. For what they do (heal/debuff) they are great as is. No need for a buff to the nuke when it better used as a burst heal.
The buff to the ult (for increased incoming damage) is reasonable (not game-breaking), but I only see it worthwhile if it is meant to give way to a "tank" role by making Accursed a real defensive force instead of "tanky" as he is right now. My support for this is that armor reduction stacks inversely with his Flame Consumption. If you armor up to reduce incoming damage you will simultaneously reduce the amount of HP you will gain during Flame Consmption since the healing is based on incoming damage. Again, this is only worthwhile if Accursed is going to suddenly become a solid "tank" and really needs his ult for healing because current Flame Consumption works well enough already. (100% true incoming damage, etc. is an idea so armor reduction is negated during Flame Consumption).
Back to Sear, I like the concept but I have some concerns:
-Self-denying. He is practically Devourer unless the Sear thing is incapable of causing a self-deny.
-Force activation. Being able to force activate Burning Strikes onto self (fro the mvsp boost specifically). Accursed should not be able to force activate that 10% mvsp or else he will just walk right out of dangerous situations. He is hard enough to kill already.
I think you do say only aura slow when "extended" too. I feel it should not exceed 300 aura range though.
Last edited by Z00lander; 01-13-2012 at 02:30 PM.
Thanks for the heads up on mechanics.
- I changed direct hp removal to True damage on Sear.
- Extended part can't be activated if hero's health pool is below 10%. He can deny himself with Cauterize already so that might have been too much self-denying possibilities indeed.
- I kept the slow part at 650 range. He's honestly not that hard to kill if countered properly (silences/stuns before he ulties). Also, next changes shall not let people go the semi-carry way that much.
As for Flame Consumption, I actually figured out the same. Having Accursed too much of a "tank" might lead people not to play him the good way. That is, as a support. Hence, I decided not to alter the spell.
That is the reason I also decided to change fixed numbers to a health pourcentageon health cost. That should encourage people not to stack too much strength on that guy and focus on the above role I stated.
Last edited by YoJ; 01-14-2012 at 09:08 AM.
-True damage works well. I think Ra uses % max HP true damage also. If not, my point is that when Ra is Fire Shielded Ra uses the HP of the Fire Shield when he casts a Meteor or Path of Destruction, which detonates the Fire Shield if enough damage is dealt to it. Since your Sear is modeled like Ra's spells, it makes for great synergy.
-The 10% max HP limit is a good handicap.
-No force activation of Burnings Strikes was necessary. Good change. This is what would of led to that "carry Accursed" bull****.
-The 2/3/4/5% True damage on Sear sounds brutal, but on the flipside when Flame Consumption is activated this could lead to some very nice HP yields (5 secs of 5% HP gain for 25% max HP gained as health). You wont always be using extended Sear, which is what you are going for. Still, these mechanics sounds a little crazy and this can either work very well or be flawed.
-My take on the aura range was predicting you would use a 300 range with a much less exhausting self damage property like 30-40 True Damage (just for an example). 650 aura may be acceptable since you have a much more volatile max health percent based self damage property. Considering balance, though, 650 may still be too much.
You most likely won't keep the aura extended for a long time. I thought of it as a way to catch up so you reach 350 range with more ease. Burning Strikes will apply without a need to sacrifice anymore health afterwards.
youre seeing accu in the wrong way. go mid, as they will underestimate you, you will probably win. when youve got your ghost marchers gank and get a sword of the high. finish the doombringer, kill kongor and just win the game. there you go, sear was perfectly fine and helped all game
You're the one seeing Accursed the wrong way. That guy was orginally designed as a support and should be played that way. Not as wannabe mid stomper.
Aura (or aoe) slows of that caliber seem broken to me. Off the top of me head, Devourer, Jeriziah only got around 250-300 range on their slow, Chtuluphant only 500.
I might reduce it if I get more feedback on that issue. That's related to balancing anyway, and as I stated in the OP, that's not my main focus.
You are right, OP. I have no other concerns then outside of balance.
So far in this thread these ideas are what I feel were important to implement.
- Damage dealt to self, not direct HP removal. Whether it is True, Magic, Physical damage, it needs to be some sort of self-damage for the Synergy you wish for.
- The 10% max HP limit (or something along the lines of this) to prevent extensive self-denying (like Devourer).
- No force activation of the Searing Strikes/Burning Strikes buff. The buff should only be applied when you attack an enemy. Its sorta hard to explain why this is necessary, but its reasoning is to prevent supporting the infamous "carry Accursed" mentality.