Logger's Hatchet

[[KCK]walkerdog]

So there are a lot of problems balance-wise that seem intertwined. This, combined with differing desires for the way a game plays out, leads to a lot of complaining about heros, gameplay, and items.

It seems to be generally agreed that HotBL is pretty busted.

Also, the "tanky dps" heros and bursty heros that people are complaining about a lot.

Also Ring of Teacher.

What about Logger's Hatchet? I like the item, but it seems like what it is designed to do (help a melee hero farm some) is actually a semi-busted effect when you bring a few heros into the equation: Deadwood, Rampage, Nomad, Tremble, Zephyr, and I'm probably missing 1-2.

The item is not unfair in itself, but combined with heros who need to farm, have high damage, and can harass, it makes for a dominant farmer that can also do a lot of denying.

For example, try beating Deadwood or Tremble at last-hits with any hero who isn't optimal for fighting them.

I have three questions:

Is Logger's Hatchet OP? (I say yes, but that's not necessarily a bad thing right?)

Is the OP part of it, if it is OP, actually a problem, or is it just the tanky-DPS heros and HotBL that are the problems? I don't think it is a huge problem, but I wonder...

Could it be turned to make it less OP if it is OP? I think that removing the damage bonus to own creeps would produce a less miserable experience when laniing vs the "tankydps" archetype.

Thoughts? Is this even coherent?

[[eR]Ekamo]

Approved.

Even though it is not one of the major contributing reasons of the tanky meta it might have a slight impact on it. It finally gives melee heroes a chance to compete for lane presence even if they the majority of the time still are at a disadvantage.

Is it desirable to "fix" this aspect of the laning phase? Should ranged heroes by design have a stronger lane presence? Does Logger's Hatchet mess with that balance too much?

[[GM]Cyber_Kun]

For example, try beating Deadwood or Tremble at last-hits with any hero who isn't optimal for fighting them.

Then lane better. Your problem isn't with the item, it is sending bad heroes to fight Tremble or Deadwood.

[PzKw]

Eh. My opinion is that Tremble more or less requires a dual lane to actually beat. This has always been the case.

Edit: This has nothing to do with hatchet.

[[KCK]walkerdog]

Cyber_Kun I enjoy your many products and posts. However, your post isn't addressing any of the questions. Basically I'm saying that a lot of griping about tanky DPS is occuring. Should we just nerf them (and/or HotBL and/or something else) or is Hatchet worth looking at too?

[[GM]Cyber_Kun]

The thing is, even if it is quite strong, it costs a fair amount early game. The bigger deal is that any issues with any hero on the item, well it is the heroes fault. This item is in a near perfect state and the problems with Zephr is because he gets too much of a heal for killing a creep early game. This is a bit like when someone was whining about, hell I forgot. The point is that if a previously considered item proves to be OP with some hero, odds are it is because the hero is at fault and the item only exasperates the issue.

[[KCK]walkerdog]

That's more in line with your usual quality of post. I just thought of this while I was at work. I'm not sure that Hatchet is OP; it may simply be that some melee heroes have too much dmg early and this is simply reflected in their ability to really make use of hatchet.

[[RCT]Reldnahc]

The Tanky DPS gained momentum from the +1 base regen and HotBL dominance. Nerfing Logger's Hatchet will just dig a further hole for heroes like Sand Wraith.

[[KCK]walkerdog]

The Tanky DPS gained momentum from the +1 base regen and HotBL dominance. Nerfing Logger's Hatchet will just dig a further hole for heroes like Sand Wraith.

How would Sand Wraith be harmed by not getting the +dmg bonus when you're trying to deny. In most teams he's not trying (and succeeding) in getting more than a few denies. Would that really be harmful to heroes other than the insane tanky dps heroes who can smash every creep in a wave while denying every creep in a wave?

[pechkin]

if you remove deny dmg bonus, it would be impossible to deny vs another melee..

[[LsE]Benny0]

if you remove deny dmg bonus, it would be impossible to deny vs another melee..

Have you ever played DotA?

[pechkin]

okay so this thread passes while mine "melee rax are too strong" not? -_-
Not op

[[f13]`11411181]

I'd say claiming the melee rax is too strong qualifies it on a higher level of retardation that this thread is.

For example, try beating Deadwood or Tremble at last-hits with any hero who isn't optimal for fighting them.

Guess what, they're going to lose anyway.

If Logger's has any real outstanding balance issues, it'd be centred around the fact that it doesn't miss uphill like other projectile 'attacks', and its rather long range. (600? iirc)

[SirVH]

The deny part should go just like on dota.

[commy]

Good luck beating tundra in mid nowadays. High armour, high basespeed, high hp pool, a tonne of ways to get last hits (hatchet, shards, cold shoulder couerl), high base dmg, godly attack animation.

[[MNI]Erg]

I like that suggestion about removing the dmg vs your own creeps.

Atm hatchet not only makes you able to easily last hit but also gives you easy lane control with the easy denies. It has to be either one or the other imo.

[pechkin]

I'd say claiming the melee rax is too strong qualifies it on a higher level of retardation that this thread is.

just because it was like that from the begining doesnt make it balanced, if one rax provide 4x of what other rax do, that rax should be tougher to kill to provide decision making "do i want to kill weak rax and have minor advantage, or should i kill tough one and have major advantage".
Every time everybody kill melee rax because noone give a **** about ranged rax coz it change almost nothing. Now keep talking about retardation.

[[NU]Tomate]

Hatchet always been able to deny... and it is sort of fair.

Removing the damage bonus for deny just sends the game more into looking alike DotA... while the game somehow try to differentiate itself...

1 aspect I could look into and agree to is that IF a melee hero denies a creep using a hatchet, ranged heroes get 2/3rd the XP instead of 1/3rd like in the current scenario. It would actually create a trade off between getting the hatchet or not and make it more 'different' than DotA.

[[LsE]Hsssh]

Range rax have lower armor value i think.

[[KCK]walkerdog]

If differentiating itself means "putting out a worse product" (I'm not saying this is the case, but differentiation isn't always a good thing), should they still do it?