[2.3.4] Soul Reaper

[Anakha]

I'm against buffs to SR for now because you, just like everyone else, grossly underestimate how good he is.

Yeah, I definitely agree. I'm also confident it's more effective to just buff Soul Reaper with numbers across the board (except for ult, it's fine) and make him more viable that way, since he was NEVER top-tier.

Necro has sat constantly mid-tier to high-tier for longer than I care to recall. PzKw can expound on this more. Only in HoN is this different, for a few varied reasons not necessarily related to SR himself.

[Shadeward]

Remove aura nerf and that's about it.

The hero is fine. His only real weakness is early game/laning phase, which is quite normal for carry heroes.

In fact, he'd be fine in protected solo vs. solo lane, it's just not going to happen in a pub.

His problem is the legion of heroes with huge magical damage output and no reason to build anything other than survivability for the first 20-30 mins. Nerf Zephyr, Ra, Kraken and the likes, then you're (more than) halfway there.

[McBriMan]

I wouldn't nerf zeph/ra etc. Well, actually I would, let me clarify, but I'd rather BUFF /rework / remake some of these older heros first before laying down nerfs, and before adding any new heros.

SR was meant to be a COUNTER to those kinds of heros. He just needs to be viable, possibly with another activated ability that helps him counter those tanky magic damage heros (who are so dominant in the competitive game atm)

[hmontana]

I made a similar thread on this very topic though it never got approved

Nuke's mana cost is too high, thought i wouldn't change it since the high cost gives u a boost when using NOmes (almost extra 50 hp heal every 5 secs)

I would just make E also passively give a mana bonus. Like say +75 to maximum mana every level. That way you can get Q and E early and focus on survivability

Another way would be to wrap W and E into 1 skill and give him necrolyte's old passive (the one that pervents a % of incoming physical dmg), though that might make him OP

[hmontana]

I'm against buffs to SR for now because you, just like everyone else, grossly underestimate how good he is.



Necro has sat constantly mid-tier to high-tier for longer than I care to recall. PzKw can expound on this more. Only in HoN is this different, for a few varied reasons not necessarily related to SR himself.

He was high tier and top ban only when Phaseboots and Bloodstone were overpowered. After those items were nerfed so was his usage.

When phaseboots used to give +5 armor and Bloodstone used to give +2 regen per charge, Him and defiler were the top carry picks. Those items are drastically different in HON. Marchers are more of a dps item and Sac stone sucks

[Shadeward]

I wouldn't nerf zeph/ra etc. Well, actually I would, let me clarify, but I'd rather BUFF /rework / remake some of these older heros first before laying down nerfs, and before adding any new heros.

SR was meant to be a COUNTER to those kinds of heros. He just needs to be viable, possibly with another activated ability that helps him counter those tanky magic damage heros (who are so dominant in the competitive game atm)

I don't think you understand.

Said heroes are so powerful that I don't believe there has been a game in DHW/NASL Finals without a hero of the likes. Of course, some of them are banned every game (Elec, namely).

There's CLEARLY a problem.

Here (http://peterpandam.blogspot.com/2011...meta-game.html) :

The strategy is stupidly simple.
- Make sure the tanky hero (Ra, Zephyr, Kraken) gets next to free farm.
- Surround him with annoying heal heroes (DS, Nymph, Jereziah, Midas)
- As soon as said tanky hero farms a vanguard, begin the 4-5 man push.

[Anakha]

He was high tier and top ban only when Phaseboots and Bloodstone were overpowered. After those items were nerfed so was his usage.

When phaseboots used to give +5 armor and Bloodstone used to give +2 regen per charge, Him and defiler were the top carry picks. Those items are drastically different in HON. Marchers are more of a dps item and Sac stone sucks

He was stupid good back with old Bloodstone giving an almost unstoppable snowball, but even when all of that got toned down, he was still, and has been, pick-able with a team surrounding him and his particular unique strengths, and winning games.

Mid-tier, like I said.

[[HoC]Floophead3]

The problem is simply that all int tanks have to build 2 sets of items to be effective, hp and mana. I don't think this is a bad thing, especially because it keeps them in line with other carries that have to farm hp and damage.

The problem rests on the retarded s2 design of "give hero a massive DPS mechanic so they only need hotbl to farm 500 gpm and roll"

Nerf the hell out of zephyr, ra, salforis, etc.

Then we can talk about buffing SR, which probably needs to be done anyways cause hasn't been viable in a long time.

[[Y2EZ]triplej]

*snip*

I actually agree with skeloperch in this thread, but you're still as dumpy as ever. His skillset is fine - he doesn't need another skill. I concur with Anakha - he is pretty strong. However, he is on the 'Nerd' tier in DotA, a game which doesn't have 74 flash-farming blinking heroes with 3 stuns and 4 slows each - that's gotta warrant some buffs somewhere. Oh, and he needs a model which isn't as ugly as sin.

Another part of his problem is Magebane - he just attacks you 3 times and then kills your entire team when he ults you, same as he does with Torturer.

[CrimsonAdder]

Necro has sat constantly mid-tier to high-tier for longer than I care to recall. PzKw can expound on this more. Only in HoN is this different, for a few varied reasons not necessarily related to SR himself.

Like someone else stated, it's pretty pointless to mention this because Necro doesn't have access to such cheese items to boost his strengths anymore, he needs much more farm.

And he's still powerful in Dota because the metagame has been far more farm-centric and slow-paced than HoN's. HoN has a lot of new heroes with dynamic concepts and super long turtling games are rare, so you can't really compare Necro's success to Soul Reaper's.

Soul Reaper needs to be adapted into the game he is, because at the moment, heroes with a very similiar role are always picked over him. He needs more early-game power and slight survivability boost in the form of a MS boost so he can be reliable.
You can argue that he can get farmed and become dominant, but it's never a practical scenario to work around a Soul Reaper...

[skeloperch]

No ms buffs, please. He's decent enough with low ms. Just give him a minor nudge in the right direction (less mana on Q by about 15-20, more mana return on E, low cd of ulti to 85/75/65, or longer range on W). I don't care what Anakha says about SR, because he's fallen behind in both DotA and HoN, and even if we nerf the cheesier heroes, he will still be weaker than average. Little tweaks would put him on par with Defiler and Torturer, hopefully, but not turn him into the buffed version of Zephyr.

[korDen]

No one mentioned his horrible attack animation, which most likely won't be fixed anyway.

I agree SR is still quite strong as a semi-carry (when farmer), but many items reworks had huge impact on him:

- astrolabe not giving any armor anymore
- ring of sorcery gives no armor anymore

coupled with very low base armor 1.1 (?) hurts him badly. Compare with Torturer's 3.2 (iirc)!

- sol's bulwark introduction (which is now in every game) makes it even worse
- helm used to be good on him, but Shielbreaker buff made it weaker

If anything, I'd boost his base armor.

[Anakha]

I don't care what Anakha says about SR, because he's fallen behind in both DotA and HoN, and even if we nerf the cheesier heroes, he will still be weaker than average. Little tweaks would put him on par with Defiler and Torturer, hopefully, but not turn him into the buffed version of Zephyr.

Asinine statement because Torturer is pretty much a perma-pick or rare ban, and Defiler is laughably weak in a meta that abuses -armour and sustained damage with heals.

Like someone else stated, it's pretty pointless to mention this because Necro doesn't have access to such cheese items to boost his strengths anymore, he needs much more farm.

And he's still powerful in Dota because the metagame has been far more farm-centric and slow-paced than HoN's. HoN has a lot of new heroes with dynamic concepts and super long turtling games are rare, so you can't really compare Necro's success to Soul Reaper's.

Soul Reaper needs to be adapted into the game he is, because at the moment, heroes with a very similiar role are always picked over him. He needs more early-game power and slight survivability boost in the form of a MS boost so he can be reliable.
You can argue that he can get farmed and become dominant, but it's never a practical scenario to work around a Soul Reaper...

Far more farm-centric? I don't think you really watch much of the two to be saying that. DotA games farm LONGER, but hon games farm QUICKER - and then both inevitably stall out to consolidate an economic advantage.
Necro's success is directly attributable to his ability to farm quickly and efficiently, which far far far fewer heroes in dota are capable of, as opposed to hon. Dynamic concepts horseshit aside, there are several heroes in hon who farm as quickly, yet not quite as efficiently (barring extreme exceptions like ra) - but this loss is more than offset by the amount of damage they can dump out at any one point.

Yes, Necro's success is extremely relevant to this thread, because they are still the same functional hero. But hey, what's a little power creep between friends?

[[IaF]Skyve]

Asinine statement because Torturer is pretty much a perma-pick or rare ban

How is Torturer a rare ban when he gets banned almost as much as Kraken?

[Anakha]

I looked through the DHW games, and I could count on one hand how many times torturer WASNT picked - so there's my justification for 'rare ban'.

[[TECH]YawningAngel]

Cake

[CrimsonAdder]

Asinine statement because Torturer is pretty much a perma-pick or rare ban, and Defiler is laughably weak in a meta that abuses -armour and sustained damage with heals.



Far more farm-centric? I don't think you really watch much of the two to be saying that. DotA games farm LONGER, but hon games farm QUICKER - and then both inevitably stall out to consolidate an economic advantage.
Necro's success is directly attributable to his ability to farm quickly and efficiently, which far far far fewer heroes in dota are capable of, as opposed to hon. Dynamic concepts horseshit aside, there are several heroes in hon who farm as quickly, yet not quite as efficiently (barring extreme exceptions like ra) - but this loss is more than offset by the amount of damage they can dump out at any one point.

Yes, Necro's success is extremely relevant to this thread, because they are still the same functional hero. But hey, what's a little power creep between friends?

I watch plenty of both to have a good idea of what I'm on about.

Yes, Dota games are quite longer, and therefore, heroes with flash farming abilities who can't really play actively at early stages are very privileged. HoN games are shorter, so Soul Reaper doesn't have the potential to become as ripped as a Necrolyte in a real scenario, because he can't even force turtling.

It is indeed true that there are less flash farmers in Dota, which is an argument that Soul Reaper has to be accounted for the game he is in. While he has powerful farm ability, there are enough heroes that overshadow him in the sense that they can be really tanky and punish the enemy team the longer they remain alive, with less farm, more early game power, and overall built-in survivability and mobility (related).

So, while we can't change the fact that HoN has these heroes NOW, we can buff Soul Reaper to a stronger state. Yeah, I am aware this might be considered power creep, but I rather look at it as the game changing over time, and applying necessary number changes to already decent concepts, that only seem outdated because of numbers that belonged to a time where the game had 30 heroes less.
Balancing is constant, the hero doesn't have to remain the exact same for years for the overall balance to be considered good.

[Sherwood]

I believe he is balanced, just his skill set is quite contradictory and confusing.

He can play support/baby sitter with his 'heal' and aura of pain but the heal does not heal for that much. It's on a short CD and does a lot of damage and is 'expensive' if you're using it just to heal 135 health. It's best used to last hit creeps, harass and heal your laning partner for effective use. However a baby sitter is not meant to take last hits off his laning partner.
The aura of pain doesn't actually do that much harassment. All it does it sting the enemy when you auto attack them.

He has a passive that restores mana when he kills an enemy. It's a nice bonus when you deny to fuel Judgements. However it's wasted if you're not going to last hit creeps.

He can use his ultimate to deal a large amount of damage to a hero, but it is often used to KILL out right. It's not like witch slayer's or pyro's ultimate where it can be used to nuke a target down to low health; Soulreaper's ultimate is more effective the more damaged the target is. As this often leads to kills, why would you want your 'support' getting kills instead of the carry?

As a result I think his skills should be tweak to enforce his semi-carry role. He can deal a large amount of damage over time by being allowed to farm with his aura and short CD AOE Nuke. However the 'babysitter' nature of the hero makes Soulreaper suffer from being a hybrid hero. He is often forced into the support role whilst not actually being the best equipped for it.
Based by his abilities he is 4/4 semi carry and 2.75/4 support.

The heal aspect of judgement is to blame. The typical HoN player sees a hero with the ability to heal and assumes they're instantly a support. Ironically they're the same players who play Midas as a semi-carry.

[Tim]

Just an idea to throw out there:

Soul Reaper may have been inadvertently nerfed due to the change on Astrolabe. He has terrible starting armor, and with that item being a usual pickup on the hero he still will need to get plated/ring to have adequate armor.

I don't remember Soul Reaper's usage during the Astrolabe change, not sure if the nerf specifically catered to him or not.

Could make an argument for a change to his agility/armor with that being said, won't really comment on this too much though as this is just all speculation. (Since I never play the hero)

[Anakha]

Astrolabe nerf gutted him since it was his core item beyond all question. Armour buffs might be warranted, as would Aura range buffs - but that's not going to magically put the hero where he should be overnight, really.

I watch plenty of both to have a good idea of what I'm on about.

Yes, Dota games are quite longer, and therefore, heroes with flash farming abilities who can't really play actively at early stages are very privileged. HoN games are shorter, so Soul Reaper doesn't have the potential to become as ripped as a Necrolyte in a real scenario, because he can't even force turtling.

It is indeed true that there are less flash farmers in Dota, which is an argument that Soul Reaper has to be accounted for the game he is in. While he has powerful farm ability, there are enough heroes that overshadow him in the sense that they can be really tanky and punish the enemy team the longer they remain alive, with less farm, more early game power, and overall built-in survivability and mobility (related).

So, while we can't change the fact that HoN has these heroes NOW, we can buff Soul Reaper to a stronger state. Yeah, I am aware this might be considered power creep, but I rather look at it as the game changing over time, and applying necessary number changes to already decent concepts, that only seem outdated because of numbers that belonged to a time where the game had 30 heroes less.
Balancing is constant, the hero doesn't have to remain the exact same for years for the overall balance to be considered good.

A fair statement, but consider that the new additions in themselves are ones that do not add significantly positive gameplay to the point where old staples should bend to fit their influence.

Midas
Monarch
Cthuluphant
Silhouette
Ra
Drunken Master
Emerald Warden
Gemini
Geomancer
Moraxus

Add in certain hero reworks (KRAKEN) as well, and the point is further cemented.


The other relatively new heroes: Parasite, Monkey King, Revenant, Flux, Master of Arms, Rhapsody, Lord Salforis - all at least add one unique mechanic or influence into the game that can or will force terms in a different yet potentially positive way, even if the hero balance is questionable at best.
Those other 10 heroes I named? If they disappeared tomorrow, the integrity of the game not only wouldn't be threatened, but drastically increased as a result of.

As a tank carry, those that are the same as his role (yet complete such a broad task in different ways) are all either on par with him (strengths and weaknesses all considered) or a gross negative influence that sit a good 2 standard deviations above the rest. Balancing to the negative influences promote a host of issues down the track when the game either turns stale or becomes unsustainable and we're rapidly seeing that now in many varied disguises.