Over 32,000 New Yorkers Marched on Brooklyn Bridge Last Night

[Apostate]

Why isn't it OK?

The majority of the wealth is held by the elite few, who use that money for their own ends, abusing our economy and slowly degrading the rights and lives of everyone else.

There are very few people who would not have better lives if the 1% were brought down. Even if not you personally, your children would certainly experience it.

If the top 1% earners in california alone paid 1% more taxes, we would have free higher education in the UC system. If they paid 10% more in taxes, we could have a learning evolution that would completely change the face of the state and improve the lives of all. This is true for everywhere.

EVERYONE is getting ****ed by the elite.

[[0g]Yin`]

I guess you are one of the "I live a comfortable life, **** everyone else" - guys, so I see no point for further explanation.

I'm a very nihilistic person, and I really could not be driven to give a ****, honestly.

The thing I live for more than anything else is experiencing something INTERESTING. That is a very broad category and does not exclude human suffering either.

For example, I find human barbarity against other humans to be very interesting. I also find human empathy and caring to be very interesting.

The majority of the wealth is held by the elite few, who use that money for their own ends, abusing our economy and slowly degrading the rights and lives of everyone else.

There are very few people who would not have better lives if the 1% were brought down. Even if not you personally, your children would certainly experience it.

If the top 1% earners in california alone paid 1% more taxes, we would have free higher education in the UC system. If they paid 10% more in taxes, we could have a learning evolution that would completely change the face of the state and improve the lives of all. This is true for everywhere.

EVERYONE is getting ****ed by the elite.

I certainly hope your efforts will not be in vain. If you lot succeed and what you say is true, then I will reap the benefits. If you fail or what you say is not true, I will have fun watching you fail.

It is a win/win situation for someone like me who lives in complete apathy.

[Droggeltasse]

The majority of the wealth is held by the elite few, who use that money for their own ends, abusing our economy and slowly degrading the rights and lives of everyone else.

There are very few people who would not have better lives if the 1% were brought down. Even if not you personally, your children would certainly experience it.

If the top 1% earners in california alone paid 1% more taxes, we would have free higher education in the UC system. If they paid 10% more in taxes, we could have a learning evolution that would completely change the face of the state and improve the lives of all. This is true for everywhere.

EVERYONE is getting ****ed by the elite.

Talk like this is what makes the movement look dangerous and stupid.
You have to be aware that you are not demonstrating against the 1% but against the local and federal goverment !

Demonstrate against stock market taxation, income taxation, reaganomics,... but dont protest against rich people because that is just stupid. Its not the 1% and not the big companies and not the lobbyists who pass legislations, but the politicians that are influenced by them.

If a system is **** you dont domonstrate against the ones who are succesfull in it but you have to change the system !

[AdventureMan]

@Yin`: I dont understand people like you. I am a fairly cynical person, with a lack of empathy for people I do not know, but still: I get the feeling that this is not fair. This issue concerns something larger than both you, me - and everyone on this forum. The vast majority of human beings on this planet are living in poverty and have little or no chances to improve their lives. Try to understand how ****ing lucky we are. Just because you think life is without value and pointless doesnt mean you should sit passively on the sideline, take some ****ing responsibility for once and at least TRY to improve the situation.

[[0g]Yin`]

@Yin`: I dont understand people like you. I am a fairly cynical person, with a lack of empathy for people I do not know, but still: I get the feeling that this is not fair. This issue concerns something larger than both you, me - and everyone on this forum. The vast majority of human beings on this planet are living in poverty and have little or no chances to improve their lives. Try to understand how ****ing lucky we are. Just because you think life is without value and pointless doesnt mean you should sit passively on the sideline, take some ****ing responsibility for once and at least TRY to improve the situation.

Wait... my apathy somehow necessitates that I don't understand my predicament in life is completely based on randomness, chance, luck?

Come now, let's not be illogical.

I've come to the conclusion that rational egoism brings me the utmost... sense of fulfillment. If life has no inherent meaning, if morality does not exist, if there is nothing beyond this life, then why should I bother wasting my time trying to improve the living standards of millions (or as you say, billions) of people around the world?

Give me a good reason why I should "take responsibility." Also, try not to make it an ethical problem because such arguments are utterly meaningless to me.

And situation? What do you mean by "situation." If it is the situation of others, then once again, do you not understand my position? You can hate it all you want, but it is not an irrational position. If it is MY position, then thanks to lady luck, I am in a much more comfortable state of being than the majority of the "suffering people" you are trying so hard to help (it is rather cute).

THANK YOU LUCK, FOR MAKING MY LIFE RELATIVELY AWESOME COMPARED TO BILLIONS OF SUFFERING SOULS ON THIS PLANET WE CALL EARTH!!!!

[AdventureMan]

As I previously stated: I do not understand your reasoning. I do not understand why anyone would like to identify themselves with nihilism, and furthermore accept it.
Concerning "taking responsibility" and "situation": Forget it. It is obviously pointless to discuss anything with someone like you.

If doing something good is a waste of your time, then so be it.

Back to topic:
I found this movie today; Occupy The Movie
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Khos-...layer_embedded

[Apostate]

Talk like this is what makes the movement look dangerous and stupid.
You have to be aware that you are not demonstrating against the 1% but against the local and federal goverment !

Demonstrate against stock market taxation, income taxation, reaganomics,... but dont protest against rich people because that is just stupid. Its not the 1% and not the big companies and not the lobbyists who pass legislations, but the politicians that are influenced by them.

If a system is **** you dont domonstrate against the ones who are succesfull in it but you have to change the system !

Here I think you are wrong. It IS the elite few who rule America, and not only the government but the corporations and the bankers and so on. And they SHOULD be protested against. The government isn't going to listen to us unless radical change happens in the way it is formed or if the corporations stop influencing them.

[Hat_Truck]

“The issue is this country does, in fact, have a serious deficit problem, but the reality is the deficit was caused by two wars—unpaid for; it was caused by huge tax breaks for the wealthiest people in this country; it was caused by a recession that was the result of the greed, recklessness and illegal behavior on Wall Street,” said Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.), who was joined by fellow Sens. Barbara Mikulski (D-Md.) and Ben Cardin (D-Md.) and Rep. Rosa DeLauro (D-Conn.). “And if those are the causes of the deficit and the national debt, I will be damned if we’re going to balance the budget on the backs of the elderly, the sick, the children and the poor.”

-Senator Bernie Sanders, Senator Budget Commitee, 11-18-2011

[[DLGN]Bloodaxe]

yall going to the big DC event on the 7th? I am going just to educate myself on peoples views, that and my step brother invited me.

[Hat_Truck]

I'm going. I'm leaving tomorrow from Kansas City on a bus with 50 others, it will be about a 24 hour drive with all the breaks included. I hope to see you there.

[[DLGN]Bloodaxe]

yo we should meet up so.we can talk all.cool.like.

[MajorIvan]

Waste of time. Occupy is just full of 20 year old stoner posers and bimbos in bikinis and short shorts that are too lazy to find a job or are too picky and want free handouts for their ineptness. Hardly anyone has a clue as to why they're out there, and the media constantly finds random people to interview that make the movement look like a laughing stock. Real homeless people with real issues come up for a free meal and get turned away.

Like Adam Carolla said, "...Back in the day, father'd be walking his son down the sidewalk and you'd see a guy go by in a Rolls Royce and the father would say, 'There goes Mr. Jenkins. Look up to him. That guy works hard. That guy built a company. That guy built an empire. Now look at him. He's got his Rolls Royce. He's driving up the hill.' What do we do now? Now it's like 'Oh, look at him! Look at him! 's he need that car? Why's he need that car? I'm driving a ******* Chevette. Why's he get to drive that ******* car? You know what? Let's go up and throw a rock at it.' That ain't gonna help you get out of the Chevette...."

[Hat_Truck]

Wait... my apathy somehow necessitates that I don't understand my predicament in life is completely based on randomness, chance, luck?

You're assuming that your entire life is based on randomness and luck, but you have no proof of that. You're basing your morals and world view on a foregone conclusion, which isn't necessarily true.

I've come to the conclusion that rational egoism brings me the utmost... sense of fulfillment. If life has no inherent meaning, if morality does not exist, if there is nothing beyond this life, then why should I bother wasting my time trying to improve the living standards of millions (or as you say, billions) of people around the world?

Who says life has no inherent meaning? Once again, you're basing your decisions on faulty conclusions.

Look, I don't mind you being a horrible, apathetic piece of ****, but don't pretend like your actions are based on logic. Just admit the truth, you don't care.

[Droggeltasse]

Here I think you are wrong. It IS the elite few who rule America, and not only the government but the corporations and the bankers and so on. And they SHOULD be protested against. The government isn't going to listen to us unless radical change happens in the way it is formed or if the corporations stop influencing them.

What are the changes you want to archive ?
Who has to do something to make this changes ?

Dont tell me you protest against the 1% so they will start to do something against their own intrest, because if you do it is pointless. I always believed you were demonstrating against your own goverment because (in your opinion) it does not act in the intrest of the people by having certain laws and regulations.

You can protest against companies or people, but if you do so the protest would have to pressure them. (blocking the production of a company, boycott certain products,...)
But that would only work if it is a very specific reason you protest for and not if you want to archive a change in society. You could for example protest against company X because they did Y, but the OWS movement is nothing like this.

Why do you think people like MajorIvan post crap like this and have no sympathy for the movement ?
Its because the movement has not made clear demands to the goverment and is poisened by idiots who demonize the rich people as if they had any responisbility for the majority of the US population. When you buy your T-shirt made in Taiwan do you think the company is acting in the intrest of the population of Taiwan ? Do you think the Union Carbide Corporation was acting in the intrest of India when they outsourced to Bophal because of lower security standards ?

For some reason the people in the US seem to believe they are the most important people in the World and companies act in their intrest, but this is just naiv. Companies act in their own intrest and its the job of goverments to protect their own populations intrests with regulation and taxation.

@MajorIvan
You example with the car is a pretty good example what is wrong with the US society. Its not the difference how the father reacts in your example it is the similiarity in both examples.
Its the fact that the father want the Rolls Royce because he thinks it would make him a more valuable and better person. Regardless of if he admires the guy who owns it or despites him for having more then he has the problem is the same. Alot of people believe having money and succes makes you a better person, what is wrong. Now others believe it makes you a worse person what is also wrong.

We have all the motivation we need to earn more money (get more luxury ) even without measuring the value of a human beeing by the stuff he owns or his income.
It does not matter if Mr.Jenkins owns a empire or a Rolls Royce it matters what person Mr. Jenkins is. Once you know this you can despite him or admire him for it !

And last to abide Godwins law, would you admire Hitler because he build a empire and had such nice cars ?

[Bertil]

I don't know very much about the occupy movement, never heard of it occuring here in Sweden. But it boggles my mind when people who demonstrate, disobey police orders etc. get surprised by police "brutality". If the police was unable to use violence when needed, why even bother having a police authority without authority? I think the US need to learn from Sweden and our socialism-capitalism, things are working out great over here.

[Apostate]

What are the changes you want to archive ?
Who has to do something to make this changes ?

I want to end the control that money has over our government and remake the government as a government for the people, by the people. I think a major part of the Occupy movement is not to actually change anything directly, but to mobilize and radicalize a new Socialist left in America which will dynamically change the politically views of millions of previously complacent voters. I believe this is a realistic goal. I couldn't articulate exact methods for fixing things at this moment, but forming that aspect of the plan isn't within my current capacity and isn't even necessary. First, we've got to get mad.

Dont tell me you protest against the 1% so they will start to do something against their own intrest, because if you do it is pointless. I always believed you were demonstrating against your own goverment because (in your opinion) it does not act in the intrest of the people by having certain laws and regulations.

You can protest against companies or people, but if you do so the protest would have to pressure them. (blocking the production of a company, boycott certain products,...)
But that would only work if it is a very specific reason you protest for and not if you want to archive a change in society. You could for example protest against company X because they did Y, but the OWS movement is nothing like this.

It actually is a lot like this. A large part of Occupy has been occupying banks, malls, and other corporate areas to prevent business as long as possible. The goal is to not change their opinion or make them help us, but to take away their political power by making our voices and actions hit harder than their money does. Keep in mind that right now their money is at its lowest that it's been in a while, so this is a crucial time to strike.

Why do you think people like MajorIvan post crap like this and have no sympathy for the movement ?
Its because the movement has not made clear demands to the goverment and is poisened by idiots who demonize the rich people as if they had any responisbility for the majority of the US population. When you buy your T-shirt made in Taiwan do you think the company is acting in the intrest of the population of Taiwan ? Do you think the Union Carbide Corporation was acting in the intrest of India when they outsourced to Bophal because of lower security standards ?

I would advise educating yourself further. Firstly, demands HAVE been made by participating organizations and you can easily find them if you wish. Secondly, the topic of demands is a heavily debated issue within this movement and within most similar social movements throughout history. Having specific demands can limit a movement, can be a form of concession to the current power system, or can portray your movement as being too unrealistic. It can be advantageous to leave things open ended. There is a lot of political theory that skeptics are completely ignorant of that goes into forming these decisions. And anyone who thinks that this movement is made up of middle class hipster college students entirely is a fool who has watched a few news broadcasts on Fox or CNN and assumed it was fact like a naive child would. Half the protestors are well into adulthood, most have jobs, etc.


Most of the negative comments I've seen are simply the result of not enough knowledge about what has been happening. Especially for someone who is not from America and is even less aware of our social context, making any comments about this at all and expecting them to carry weight is unacceptable unless you research it first to make sure your opinion is well educated.

[Droggeltasse]

I want to end the control that money has over our government and remake the government as a government for the people, by the people. I think a major part of the Occupy movement is not to actually change anything directly, but to mobilize and radicalize a new Socialist left in America which will dynamically change the politically views of millions of previously complacent voters. I believe this is a realistic goal. I couldn't articulate exact methods for fixing things at this moment, but forming that aspect of the plan isn't within my current capacity and isn't even necessary. First, we've got to get mad.

Thanks for proving my point !
Thats exactly why i posted this questions all this is about the goverment and not the policy of companies or private persons.

It actually is a lot like this. A large part of Occupy has been occupying banks, malls, and other corporate areas to prevent business as long as possible. The goal is to not change their opinion or make them help us, but to take away their political power by making our voices and actions hit harder than their money does. Keep in mind that right now their money is at its lowest that it's been in a while, so this is a crucial time to strike.

You say again that you do this to take away their political power what is a demand to your goverment and not to them !

I would advise educating yourself further. Firstly, demands HAVE been made by participating organizations and you can easily find them if you wish. Secondly, the topic of demands is a heavily debated issue within this movement and within most similar social movements throughout history. Having specific demands can limit a movement, can be a form of concession to the current power system, or can portray your movement as being too unrealistic. It can be advantageous to leave things open ended. There is a lot of political theory that skeptics are completely ignorant of that goes into forming these decisions.

Iam aware that there are demands from "participating organizations" but that does not mean anything in a open movement. Unless OWS directly is connected to certain demands it means nothing since you still cant negotiate them or discuss them directly. While this is a advantage its also a huge disadvantage what is probably the main reason they dont exists. (And they dont exist!) Clear demands can:
-decrease the size of the movement by scaring members of OWS who disagree with them
-be directly atacked by experts and politicians
I did not say the OWS movement is bad because they have no clear formed demands they all agree on, i just said that this has disadvantages. If you cant endure even the smallest critique stay away from this thread.

Most of the negative comments I've seen are simply the result of not enough knowledge about what has been happening. Especially for someone who is not from America and is even less aware of our social context, making any comments about this at all and expecting them to carry weight is unacceptable unless you research it first to make sure your opinion is well educated.

The good old you have no idea what you are talking about so shut up argument. Its nice to hear this in a thread that is as superficial as this. If you think you know so much more why dont you use any of that in your arguments.
Name this clear OWS demands, let us discuss why they would work or would not work in the US system,...
Is that to much to ask for ?
Ok then just name legislation you personaly disagree on, tell me specific examples of what you think should be changed...

We get it, you are part of the movement and cant even stand the smallest critique. And pls keep that in mind in this discussions. A guy from North-Korea would be probably the person in this thread that knows most about North-Korea, but he would still not be the person i would trust when i want to know if North-Korea has a good political system.

Just out of intrest:
I know there are alot of other posters that support the movement directly in this thread. Do you agree with this sentence of Apostate?

"I think a major part of the Occupy movement is not to actually change anything directly, but to mobilize and radicalize a new Socialist left in America which will dynamically change the politically views of millions of previously complacent voters."

[Hat_Truck]

Thanks for proving my point !
Thats exactly why i posted this questions all this is about the goverment and not the policy of companies or private persons.

The policies of our corrupt government and of the corporations are practically synonymous. You don't seem to understand this situation at all.

You say again that you do this to take away their political power what is a demand to your goverment and not to them !

The demand is to the government, but we also have power over the corporations as well. If we veto, boycott, and disrupt the corporate puppeteers, we're much more likely to get a result than if we attack the political puppets. There is already a system in place for changing the policies of the political/governmental system, it's called voting. Obviously, that hasn't worked, so it stands to reason that we need to involve the corporations in this protest as well.

Iam aware that there are demands from "participating organizations" but that does not mean anything in a open movement. Unless OWS directly is connected to certain demands it means nothing since you still cant negotiate them or discuss them directly. While this is a advantage its also a huge disadvantage what is probably the main reason they dont exists. (And they dont exist!) Clear demands can:
-decrease the size of the movement by scaring members of OWS who disagree with them
-be directly atacked by experts and politicians
I did not say the OWS movement is bad because they have no clear formed demands they all agree on, i just said that this has disadvantages. If you cant endure even the smallest critique stay away from this thread.

This entire segment is just your (from what I can tell) completely uncredible and worthless opinion on the values of having solidified demands. There are people spearheading this movement who actually have credentials, and who realize that there are extremely good reasons to wait until making more concrete demands. We had this discussion at an OWS Training yesterday. As soon as your demands become too concrete, you begin to alienate huge pieces of your potential supporters. In addition to that, there isn't a consensus yet on what we should do. Like Apostate said: First, we have to get mad. Once this movement reaches critical mass (and I think it will), and they have no choice but to listen to us, THEN we can make demands. This seems logical enough to me; you build your logistics and infrastructure first, then you look for solutions.

The good old you have no idea what you are talking about so shut up argument.

In this case, it's true.

Name this clear OWS demands, let us discuss why they would work or would not work in the US system,...
Is that to much to ask for ?

Here are the demands we have so far (subject to change), but why should we discuss with you whether it will work in the US system? What do you even know about it, and how does your approval or disapproval make the tiniest bit of difference?

The last part of your post just seems to be a personal attack on Apostate, and an attempt to divide the supporters of OWS and make us bicker amongst ourselves; it won't work because the media has already beat you to it, and they're failing miserably. If I thought you were an open-minded person, who was really educated on the matters of the U.S. government, and whose mind could really be changed with good argumentation or evidence, then maybe you would be worth having a discussion with. As it stands, I'm not wasting another minute on you.

[MajorIvan]

@MajorIvan
You example with the car is a pretty good example what is wrong with the US society. Its not the difference how the father reacts in your example it is the similiarity in both examples.
Its the fact that the father want the Rolls Royce because he thinks it would make him a more valuable and better person. Regardless of if he admires the guy who owns it or despites him for having more then he has the problem is the same. Alot of people believe having money and succes makes you a better person, what is wrong. Now others believe it makes you a worse person what is also wrong.

We have all the motivation we need to earn more money (get more luxury ) even without measuring the value of a human beeing by the stuff he owns or his income.
It does not matter if Mr.Jenkins owns a empire or a Rolls Royce it matters what person Mr. Jenkins is. Once you know this you can despite him or admire him for it !

And last to abide Godwins law, would you admire Hitler because he build a empire and had such nice cars ?

It was from a rant Adam Carolla did on his podcast about the ows having self entitled monsters. He also mentioned how now there's participation trophies instead of just one mvp. Just youtube Adam Carolla ows sometime. Pretty good rant, like all of his.

[Droggeltasse]

The policies of our corrupt government and of the corporations are practically synonymous. You don't seem to understand this situation at all.

What does it matter if they are synonymous if the corporations policies have to much influence its still a problem of the goverment and the only force that could regulate corporate policies is the goverment.

The demand is to the government, but we also have power over the corporations as well. If we veto, boycott, and disrupt the corporate puppeteers, we're much more likely to get a result than if we attack the political puppets. There is already a system in place for changing the policies of the political/governmental system, it's called voting. Obviously, that hasn't worked, so it stands to reason that we need to involve the corporations in this protest as well.

I never denied that you have power over corporations, but Apostate said that the goal of the demonstrations is to stop the corporations from influencing the goverment. I pointed out that corporations would not stop this on its own and only the goverment could change this. Later he expanded it to doing economical damage and pressure the companies and the only thing i did was to point out that it is still a demand to the goverment what you agreed with in your first sentence.

This entire segment is just your (from what I can tell) completely uncredible and worthless opinion on the values of having solidified demands. There are people spearheading this movement who actually have credentials, and who realize that there are extremely good reasons to wait until making more concrete demands. We had this discussion at an OWS Training yesterday. As soon as your demands become too concrete, you begin to alienate huge pieces of your potential supporters. In addition to that, there isn't a consensus yet on what we should do. Like Apostate said: First, we have to get mad. Once this movement reaches critical mass (and I think it will), and they have no choice but to listen to us, THEN we can make demands. This seems logical enough to me; you build your logistics and infrastructure first, then you look for solutions.

Nothing in this part of your post disagrees with what i said. You give reason to wait with making concrete demands and one of them is even the same as one of the two I posted. And non of them is a point against my example of a "advantage" of concrete demands and i never made a point if OSW should make concrete demands now or not. You seem to want to disagree with me for the sake of it instead of posting arguments against my point you say you disagree with me and post something i never said anything against.

Here are the demands we have so far (subject to change), but why should we discuss with you whether it will work in the US system? What do you even know about it, and how does your approval or disapproval make the tiniest bit of difference?

If you dont want to hear other opinions dont start a discussion thread in a online forum. My approval makes obviously no difference as does the approval of anyone in this thread. I came here to discuss the topic and not to support it or "hurt" it.

The last part of your post just seems to be a personal attack on Apostate, and an attempt to divide the supporters of OWS and make us bicker amongst ourselves; it won't work because the media has already beat you to it, and they're failing miserably. If I thought you were an open-minded person, who was really educated on the matters of the U.S. government, and whose mind could really be changed with good argumentation or evidence, then maybe you would be worth having a discussion with. As it stands, I'm not wasting another minute on you.

If I want to discuss something you dont agree on I do it to "make you bicker among yourself"? You say i am not open-minded but on the other hand think it is not worthy of a discussion when someone posts something this controversial? I have no intrest to "hurt" your movement at all i even support most of your ideas and the only reason i pointed this post out is because i want to know if this is the general opinion amoung the OWS supporters in this forum or not, because i think this is a wrong thing to do.


I came into this thread to discuss the OWS movement. I did not come here to speak for it. I did not come here to speak against it. If you are here to promote it, its fine. You dont search a discussion and there is no point for me to post here. I know that know after you atacked me with your entire post and you did not even disagree with me in it.