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Is it not funny that there suddenly is a lot of Gemini smurfs? And their all doing quite good? Also check the usage stats out, gemini on 57% win streak now. Despite how much you dont want to see it hit by the nerf bat Demonwing, I think you'll see one soon enough, Monarch got hit now =)
42.7% global winrate. I'm not averse to him being nerfed, I just don't want him destroyed. Midas, Magebane, HotBL, and other things are probably higher up on S2s nerf list, though, so I'm not expecting a nerf soon. I'm guessing probably 3 weeks at least until they get to him. He has some really big counters especially for non-top tier Gemini players who are not very good at micro and bunch of their wolves a lot, so I don't think he's that big of an issue tbh. Every time I see a Gemini win I am not under the impression that he won because of the hero. Generally he plays well and the enemy team makes a lot of mistakes.Originally Posted by BRUTALSWRATH
My friend built god damn 3x axe of the malphai and 3x dancing blade. Just pure stats, and he raped
yep, you already rape with 2 dancing blades mid-game, any more than that is just better and better
Demonwing, just one thing - behe heart is only 1,1k wasted, since the recipe gives you +10 str. I do think it's worth making, since brutalizer is also 1,1k hp wasted into a reicpe which will only become useful lategame. Danceing blade might be left until lategame, where you make it into wingbow. Frostwulf skull is stupid i agree, frostburn is easily enough, geomancer's isn't that good on him, since he lacks mobility, so there's no need to transform frostburn into anything else. Savage is awesome lategame, so is brutalizer, but in some lineups nullfire is decent, up to you though.
So many Gemini smurfs, including me, cos the hero is on the free hero list atm. Check his win ratio within the next 2 weeks
Wrong:P
Here is what works for me. As the guide allready stated gemini is powerfull cause of his ability to get 100% extra xp through the game.
Abyssal skull: This is the first thing i get due to the reason i can let the firewolf farm without the fear of him losing to much health. Do like this.
Hold your shift button down. Press "A" (Attack move) and select all the spots in your own forrest where there is creeps spawing. You can give this que up command as many times as you like and the wolf will continuely walk between the creeps and kill em. While doing so you can controll your ice wolf at a lane farming. So you get double xp so to say. Whenever i see the chance for it i teleport one to another for a quick gank, and you need to learn how to ultilize this ability. It saves you a lot of travel time hence (XPM) or (GPM).
I walk around in my ulti form untill the point i am lvl 25 , because that is your ultimate goal. Get as much xp as fast as you can get. Ive tryed many games where i hit lvl 25 before they actually hit lvl 18.
Regarding the fight itself. Ive seen people do it in different ways. Some initiate in there normal form and split after the initial hit. And some simply dont use there ulti because they underestimate it. Mainly because they know it only benefits from stats.
HERE IS THE RIGHT WAY TO DO IT!!!
Stay in your split form! even when you initiate. NEVER ENTER A FIGHT WITHOUT MAKING SURE YOUR ULTI HAS COOL DOWNED!!! This is because you need to ultilize the ability to regain full health. So..
Enter a fight and initiate with your charge. Like this.
Hold shift down, Select the first wolf. Cast his "W" spell on the target "While still holding down the shift button" press the "Q" spell on the target. Press your tab button now to select the other wolf, and hold shift down again and do the same thing. If you have gotten this right the two wolves will cast all of there 4 spells in the fight itself without you having to do it. This is some insane nuke power. If one of your wolves start to lose to much health you recombine, and quickly hit with your "W" spell then your "Q" spell and now split again, and quickly hit with your two wolves again, your wolves should be at full health again "ofcause if they havent taken aoe damage". This takes some practice before you do need to press a lot of buttons for this to work probaly but i tell you, if you get this right you will love thees dogs.
As for items after abyssal you only get stats items, and when you are lvl 25 or when you have no more room in your inventory you start buying the recipes.
Here is what i build up after the abyssal.
1x Blessed orb. "+10 str, agil, int" I usely choose this after the abyssal mainly because it gives some more mana and a larger health pool which helps.
4x quickblades "+40 agil" Please note. This is 80 damage while in your split form because both your wolves benefit from the items. Not just one. Not to mention they give a hell of a lot attack speed. The quickblades will be collected into. Brutalizer, nullfire and firebrand.
I know that some likes to have frostbrand and ultimately frostwolf on him for late game but i woulden use it. And the reason is simpel. You got 3 abilities that makes you able to chase down heroes. Getting a fourth from a proc item is waste. And you do not need it for extra health either. You got 2x the actual health pool you see and life steal + one ability that lets you escape and actually damageing as you do.
In a game where all heroes hit lvl 25 you got a problem. Unless you are farmed gemini is not able to counter any other hard carrier in the game. If you play gemini you have to be ahead of your opponent using your advantages and ultimately end the game before they get to lvl 25.
If you get more items than ive allready mentioned. Get either thunderclaw (This is the last item you get since it dosent have any stats that helps your ulti) or wingbow.
I never buy boots for him. Yes you are reading correctly. Because of the static movement increase from your ulti. You do not waste 1400 on boots. And if you do it is because you are at the point where you are lvl 25 and you are ready to walk around in your normal form, benefitting from your proc items.
Good luck and hoped this helped with some micro controll.
Hey Demonwing, I read your guide and I found it amazing. After reading all of your answers, only one thing remained unclear for me. On the very late game, when you manage to build up savage,bruta and shrunken. How exactly does the combat works? All of them: savage and bruta only proc while in in gemini form and shrunken is only usable in gemini form. So, as far as I understood from your strat, you initiate using the combo with the wolfs then merge when one of them is about to die.And then, after hitting Q and W, split again for almost full health. From what I see, those 3 items remain useless(except from the stats).
On the late game section, you mentioned this: "Of course, you should always stay in ult form as you have throughout the entire game". I may have missed something, but I did not see any explanation about the late game combat. Does it stay the same? What about those three items that remain unused? Your guide suggests a transaction from split form to gemini form on the late, but from what I got, you only actually use it to regain hp and split again. Confusing
Sorry for the immense text and for spelling mistakes.
And once again, congratulations for the super detailed guide, hope it gets to premium.
Thanks. I'll be sure to remedy that confusion in my next update. A big part of the confusion was that I really didn't have any examples of my build going late to experiment with. Recently I've had a lot of games go late so I can answer the question much more thoroughly.Hey Demonwing, I read your guide and I found it amazing. After reading all of your answers, only one thing remained unclear for me. On the very late game, when you manage to build up savage,bruta and shrunken. How exactly does the combat works? All of them: savage and bruta only proc while in in gemini form and shrunken is only usable in gemini form. So, as far as I understood from your strat, you initiate using the combo with the wolfs then merge when one of them is about to die.And then, after hitting Q and W, split again for almost full health. From what I see, those 3 items remain useless(except from the stats).
On the late game section, you mentioned this: "Of course, you should always stay in ult form as you have throughout the entire game". I may have missed something, but I did not see any explanation about the late game combat. Does it stay the same? What about those three items that remain unused? Your guide suggests a transaction from split form to gemini form on the late, but from what I got, you only actually use it to regain hp and split again. Confusing
Sorry for the immense text and for spelling mistakes.
And once again, congratulations for the super detailed guide, hope it gets to premium.
I would recommend this type of transition (I'll elaborate afterward)
(after level 6 when you have ult)
Before you pick up boots: If you must merge, run away immediately unless the enemy is at below 50 hp and only stay long enough for that one hit then get out
After you pick up boots: Be willing to play around a little in normal form, but only if you are forced to and only if there are no medium-large threats around. Generally no ult = run away time
After you pick up Frostburn and skill passive: Do not leave ult form unless forced to, but when you do don't be afraid to actively fight. Stick around and run away at the same time you would with any normal hero.
After you pick up Savage Mace (which I generally recommend before Shrunken I've found): Stay in ult form to initiate but actively look for opportunities to merge and start dishing out dps with Gemini. Wait until a lot of spells have been blown as you do not have a shrunken, but you want to be hitting someone with Gemini opposed to you wolves. Use your ult as a delivering mechanism.
after you pick up Shrunken: Maybe use wolves for farming but mostly stay in Gemini form and act like a normal carry. Generally you'll find that you initiate with twin fangs-shrunken and when the enemies are too far away ult-leap breath combo-merge. By then Twin fangs will be back up so you can latch onto somebody with your Savage mace auto attacks again.
After fully tiered out: Don't use your ult. Just stick with your team and try to right-click people to death in fights.
Obviously use your judgement when deciding to fight or flee when your ult is down in Gemini form earlier in the game. Note that Gemini requires ridiculous amounts of items to actually carry well so you won't be having real carry gear outside of hour+ games
Gemini needs boots, obviously. He needs frostburn to stay on people. He needs Shrunken to not get chain-cc'd, he needs a Savage for DPS, and he really would like a Brutalizer to actually stay on somebody (as his mobility is horrible). That is a good 15k+ gold required for him to be able to actually cover his weaknesses enough in a fight unlike many other carries such as chronos who can skip mobility items entirely or Pred who can skip a lot of survivability items. Gemini needs all of that from items as he has no innate skills for carrying other than his passive, which ironically enough needs items to function. He's very item-hungry. This problem makes TDL a bad carry. She is a good carry. . .once you get 10k+ gold worth of gear on her.
Anyway, if you have any more questions just ask
couldn't have won without demonwing proing it up on lego while giving me tips on my gemini play. our bubbles was pretty damn good too, but even for a retard like me gemini is effective against pros.
all in all was a great game against testie, bkid, and tralf. it was a nail biter until the end.
Thanks. I'll be sure to remedy that confusion in my next update. A big part of the confusion was that I really didn't have any examples of my build going late to experiment with. Recently I've had a lot of games go late so I can answer the question much more thoroughly.
I would recommend this type of transition (I'll elaborate afterward)
(after level 6 when you have ult)
Before you pick up boots: If you must merge, run away immediately unless the enemy is at below 50 hp and only stay long enough for that one hit then get out
After you pick up boots: Be willing to play around a little in normal form, but only if you are forced to and only if there are no medium-large threats around. Generally no ult = run away time
After you pick up Frostburn and skill passive: Do not leave ult form unless forced to, but when you do don't be afraid to actively fight. Stick around and run away at the same time you would with any normal hero.
After you pick up Savage Mace (which I generally recommend before Shrunken I've found): Stay in ult form to initiate but actively look for opportunities to merge and start dishing out dps with Gemini. Wait until a lot of spells have been blown as you do not have a shrunken, but you want to be hitting someone with Gemini opposed to you wolves. Use your ult as a delivering mechanism.
after you pick up Shrunken: Maybe use wolves for farming but mostly stay in Gemini form and act like a normal carry. Generally you'll find that you initiate with twin fangs-shrunken and when the enemies are too far away ult-leap breath combo-merge. By then Twin fangs will be back up so you can latch onto somebody with your Savage mace auto attacks again.
After fully tiered out: Don't use your ult. Just stick with your team and try to right-click people to death in fights.
Obviously use your judgement when deciding to fight or flee when your ult is down in Gemini form earlier in the game. Note that Gemini requires ridiculous amounts of items to actually carry well so you won't be having real carry gear outside of hour+ games
Gemini needs boots, obviously. He needs frostburn to stay on people. He needs Shrunken to not get chain-cc'd, he needs a Savage for DPS, and he really would like a Brutalizer to actually stay on somebody (as his mobility is horrible). That is a good 15k+ gold required for him to be able to actually cover his weaknesses enough in a fight unlike many other carries such as chronos who can skip mobility items entirely or Pred who can skip a lot of survivability items. Gemini needs all of that from items as he has no innate skills for carrying other than his passive, which ironically enough needs items to function. He's very item-hungry. This problem makes TDL a bad carry. She is a good carry. . .once you get 10k+ gold worth of gear on her.
Anyway, if you have any more questions just ask
Nice! That's all I wanted to know, thanks for the time and attention.
As soon as I get home from my holidays, I'll get to hon and test out your gemini strat ^^
Perhaps you could mentor me? ><
PS.: Still no grave locket in the guide.
Yea that game was really good. Bubbles carried us through early-mid game but once I got my pk I could disrupt the other team long enough for you to dps them down without getting aoe raped.couldn't have won without demonwing proing it up on lego while giving me tips on my gemini play. our bubbles was pretty damn good too, but even for a retard like me gemini is effective against pros.
all in all was a great game against testie, bkid, and tralf. it was a nail biter until the end.
Yea sure just add me as a buddy in HoN and if you see that I'm on and not in a game just message me and I'd be happy to help.Nice! That's all I wanted to know, thanks for the time and attention.
As soon as I get home from my holidays, I'll get to hon and test out your gemini strat ^^
Perhaps you could mentor me? ><
PS.: Still no grave locket in the guide.
Yea, redoing the pictures again is annoying but I'll get to it >_<
Hmmm, after reading the guide even more carefully xD, I think there are some info missing in order for it to be completed.
1) As items only apply when the wolfs merge, in what situations may you merge just to get the stats? Or maybe don't merge at all and wait for a gank/teamfight to happen? Considering the cooldown, what should be the priority, the combo, or the stats.
2) "In general, however, this guide will assume a solo mid gemini."
Which means, if by any issue I do not go mid, the whole strategy crumbles. Since you will not get those early levels in a dual lane and Gemini can't properly solo against 2 heroes. So, when forced to go side lane, what happens? The guide should contain the answer to all casualities
3)"Every time a rune spawns, use your nuke to push the lane quickly, so that you don't lose creeps when going for the rune. This is basically how the middle lane is won."
This is extracted from Pyro's premium guide, which applies to any other hero in hon. Except Gemini. So, what to do when the opposing hero nukes the lane in order to bottle the rune and you are not lv 6 yet? As you said, the goal to go middle is to get levels, pursuing the enemy wouldn't be viable. But, if the enemy is constantly getting the runes with bottle, he can gank the sidelanes or kill/harass mid with "infinite" mana and health supply.
Those questions could probably be answered by watching the replays, but it's worth mentioning I guess o.o
Good questionsHmmm, after reading the guide even more carefully xD, I think there are some info missing in order for it to be completed.
1) As items only apply when the wolfs merge, in what situations may you merge just to get the stats? Or maybe don't merge at all and wait for a gank/teamfight to happen? Considering the cooldown, what should be the priority, the combo, or the stats.
2) "In general, however, this guide will assume a solo mid gemini."
Which means, if by any issue I do not go mid, the whole strategy crumbles. Since you will not get those early levels in a dual lane and Gemini can't properly solo against 2 heroes. So, when forced to go side lane, what happens? The guide should contain the answer to all casualities
3)"Every time a rune spawns, use your nuke to push the lane quickly, so that you don't lose creeps when going for the rune. This is basically how the middle lane is won."
This is extracted from Pyro's premium guide, which applies to any other hero in hon. Except Gemini. So, what to do when the opposing hero nukes the lane in order to bottle the rune and you are not lv 6 yet? As you said, the goal to go middle is to get levels, pursuing the enemy wouldn't be viable. But, if the enemy is constantly getting the runes with bottle, he can gank the sidelanes or kill/harass mid with "infinite" mana and health supply.
Those questions could probably be answered by watching the replays, but it's worth mentioning I guess o.o
1. Unless you just picked up like +20 str worth of items or just leveled up your ult (at 11 or 16), do not merge for that reason and if you do merge for that reason try to do it when you know there will be little action within the next minute. I definately try to merge at level 11 and 16 though for the level up if I can.
2. Gemini also makes a great solo long/short sidelaner and that is actually how I use him when I'm captain in scrims and other more serious games. Just do not put Gemini in a dual lane. It shouldn't be done. I won't include a comprehensive guide on it because of that reason similar to how soulstealer and hag guides do not have that type of information. If you must sidelane with a partner, consider skilling your nukes if you have a strong combo. Otherwise skill stats as normal. Play similarly, but everything you do will be pushed back 3 minutes or so and you will not be able to be as aggressive.
3. A good player will absolutely have a great advantage over you when it comes to runes. You can try to lessen any lane pushing attempts by auto attacking or by creep leashing, which draws the enemy creeps onto you and keeps them from attacking your own creeps (which in turn pushes the lane). If you leash a creep wave into your tower earlier than your opponent would like, the wave will push out. You 99.9% of the time will not actually get any runes. As Gemini, your goal is not to win middle, it is to tie middle and possibly get level 6 before the enemy hero through focusing on denies. Call missing and where the enemy went to prevent ganks and ferry HP pots to deal with his "infinite" mana supply. I've ferried over as many as 4 health pots to stay in lane. It's worth it.
I got absolutely stomped going stat build (not this one) so I was quite dissapointed and haven't played Gemini since, but the reason I tried him out was this:
Savage Mace stacks.
So what I'm wondering now is, would you drop out any item to get multiple Savage Maces?
Since you could hit 2x +100 in 1 hit, which could result in a lucky strike of 4x +100 in 1 attack.
What do you think?
I guess you could drop your basher for one if you are out of buybacks and you are already tiered out and the game is an hour and a half long so you have time to farm it.
Never played a game that matches that description yet, though, out of over 200 Gemini games. I think I've played 2 out of over 1000 total recent games.
Alright, oh and thanks for double checking in Mechanics.
I'm glad you put time into helping people. :]
And if you're ever going to experiment with multiple Savage Maces I would love to know the results, if you don't mind ofcourse.
I went basher for the first time.
It's so sick on Gemini. I was constant stunning the enemy with my dancing blade (increases attack speed).
It's a great late game item.
I also made a genjuro from my dancing blade (we were winning anyway).
After they focused both of my lions, I managed to rejoin and twin fang away, then I went invis XD such a good escape.
I want to try a basher + savage mace late game. The stun rate must be insane.
np. I'll be sure to let you know if I have such a game
First time using build: 13-1-14
Second time using build: 13-4-10 (All melee no support bads in 1500 but still carried)
Both with 400 gpm or better....
I am totally going to play this build out until it's nerfed LOL!
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