Thread: Gemini

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  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by wYnDoN View Post
    Haven't been posting for a while and now this discussion arises. I'm fearing people are getting to know what a powerhouse gemini can be. However...
    Gemini is perfect. Balance-wise, risk-to-reward-ratio-wise, funfactor-wise. He's the hero that will make me stay in HoN after dota2 comes out. No contest.
    My sub-account - PopCokeSoda has 40% gemini play, using a refined version of demonwing's tactics, my MMR is reaching 1800 after 60 games. I go immortal on a daily basis and sometimes put in an annihilation. One of my clip is in the latest top 5 plays of the week (however I had to initiate using gemini form) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRrsZHJuqnQ. All this, just to say that I fully support demonwing's tactic and going anything else seems like a downgrade from the perfect strategy (also, I wanted to boast a bit more ).
    Nice play! The best part is that when someone's really in the zone they can pull of way more awesome shenanigans. Those maneuvers are only the beginning.
    Thanks you for your support. What are your "refinements" may I ask? I will probably watch a replay eventually but I don't have time right now. I'm interested in soundly reasoned variations

  2. #62
    It all comes down to prioritizing dmg output over tankyness. As you can see, I don't die that much - there are games where I don't die at all or maybe once, that's why I stick to going soulscream rings into frostburn (starting with firebrand), into abyssal (this item greatly increases GPM on this hero - worth mentioning in your guide), into either brutalizer (if I feel like I need the extra hp) or diffusal (in most cases - way more utility in my eyes + more dmg output with 10 more agility). I rarely go shrunken head, wingbow being my new favourite, savage mace if need be. If one masters the art of splitting/combining/splitting/combining/splitting then they rarely need to go back regen.
    I sometimes forget how my base looks like, that's how often I go there I can't stress enough how amazing this hero is and how I feel it is tailor made for my personal preferences.
    http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/sh...40#post1729640
    The great list of hard and soft skills you need, to play HoN!

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by wYnDoN View Post
    It all comes down to prioritizing dmg output over tankyness. As you can see, I don't die that much - there are games where I don't die at all or maybe once, that's why I stick to going soulscream rings into frostburn (starting with firebrand), into abyssal (this item greatly increases GPM on this hero - worth mentioning in your guide), into either brutalizer (if I feel like I need the extra hp) or diffusal (in most cases - way more utility in my eyes + more dmg output with 10 more agility). I rarely go shrunken head, wingbow being my new favourite, savage mace if need be. If one masters the art of splitting/combining/splitting/combining/splitting then they rarely need to go back regen.
    I sometimes forget how my base looks like, that's how often I go there I can't stress enough how amazing this hero is and how I feel it is tailor made for my personal preferences.

    hm. Perhaps. I still feel that your damage output is more than high enough for any reasonable purpose early-early mid game (like 180ish physical dps with both wolves without dmg items, I mean cmon) and that you get more benefit from survivability. Surviving longer allows more damage in the long run and lets you play more aggressively. I probably play more aggressively than you do and that influences my early build which is not necessarily good or bad. It seems to be working for you so keep on winning

  4. #64
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    I really do have to agree that he is a fantastic hero. I love playing him.

  5. #65
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    Damn man, really nice guide, stats ftw, i was 1400, i pulled to 1600 with this, thanks man

  6. #66
    Damn man, really nice guide, stats ftw, i was 1400, i pulled to 1600 with this, thanks man
    Thanks. Congratulations on your achievement

  7. #67
    In recognition of Gemini going off EA this week, I'll make my last major update (no real skill changes or anything, just more prettiness and more details and expanded sections) and post it Friday!


    I want at least one person per HoN game to know enough to facepalm when the Gemini on his or her team asks for short lane with a babysitter so he can farm.

  8. #68
    Randomly tried gemini like this in a game.. raped.. hard. went 18-0 lol. I went 2Xrunes, hatchet, 3Xtotems. -> firebrand then abysall.. got a few kills, farmed a sec.. got heart and wingbow before they were even level 16 yet. Great hero, great guide(even though i didnt fallow your build)

  9. #69
    Have played Gem a ton lately. 1800 bracket. Solid guide, I'd toss out that energizer is an excellent early game item on him.

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Appal View Post
    energizer
    Do explain

  11. #71
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    Love this guide! I'm still having troubles with the micro but I guess that i'll get better with practice! Excellent job!

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by demonwing View Post
    Do explain
    I think the use that I would see for it is that because you don't have boots early, if you are forced to join up to save yourself you can use the Energizer to give yourself a boost away from your foes until your leap CD is back up.

  13. #73
    why dont you buy boots instead then, if you have that problem?

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by PopCokeSoda View Post
    why dont you buy boots instead then, if you have that problem?



    Sorry. Overslept. Getting on that update.

  15. #75
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    I reviewed things again and I'd like to make a few comments and pose a question or two:

    First there are two REALLY useful things in there that I had always had problems with, and I am glad you pointed out. I didn't know you can give items to Fire with the courier, which is really good to know. I also didn't know that you can hotkey Gemini so that you can level his abilities even while in ult form. I had always been very annoyed by having to merge in order to level abilities. Question: If you put say a second point in ultimate while in ultimate form, does it immediately increase movespeed, magic armor, and spell damage? These two facts are invaluable even to me after having played him so often.

    My second major point that I'm really curious about is your brief, unexplained mention of soloing kongor. I have never attempted this until far later in the game when I already have fairly tiered out items, and I did it in Gemini form to take advantage of the Brutalizer permastun. Can you give me a replay where you do this? Is this your main reason for getting Abyssal as early as you do?

    Third, you have a fairly serious typo in your ult description that says level one ult has 270 movespeed. (lol)

    Fourth; I want to pick at your order of operations as far as buying things. What I have always used is this method, without any real problems:

    :FortifiedBracelet::FortifiedBracelet::LoggersHatc het:
    :BolsteringArmband::MightyBlade:

    I then do NOT immediately finish the frostbrand, the recipe gives no immediate benefits to ult form other than consolidating item space which you don't need to do. Then I go:

    :FortifiedBracelet::FortifiedBracelet::MightyBlade :
    :BolsteringArmband::MightyBlade::MightyBlade:

    Easy to get by the 20 minute mark, maybe 25 in a bad game. Gives you a total of something like 85 strength at this point, which is ridiculous for that early in the game. I find that this much health this early in the game is essential to how I play Gem. The loss of the TP slot is rarely important, I don't use TPs at all until much later usually for clutch escapes when someone can finally do enough damage to threaten me. Keeping the wolves spread and one with the team makes being able to defend not contingent on having a TP anyways.

    From there I think our builds sort of meet up. I only go Abyssal if I feel like I need it, which I usually don't. I would much rather get my Frostburn, Brutalizer, Steamboots and finally Shrunken finished.

    Fifth; I feel like if you want this to be premium (which it should be) then you should add a section that critically and mathematically reviews the benefits of all "viable" luxury items for Gemini, those items being Nullfire, Charged Hammer, Savage Mace, Rift Shards, Wing Bow, Frostwulf, Heart, Geometers, and possibly Symbol of Rage. Lethe has done some math for these items already and it would be interesting if you could include that to help people better understand why and when they should get certain items. You also don't really interact with the possibility that someone might find themselves with 3K+ gold that they haven't spent, and why even then they shouldn't invest in a Axe or Dancing Blade.

    Sixth; I think your list of enemies and allies should be expanded. Personally I see Torturer as the biggest contender for worst enemy, due to his ability to harass you so much mid and also because his strong aoe is very difficult to avoid in team fights lategame. A section dealing with the most difficult mids to go up against might be worthwhile.

    It's already a fantastic guide that's hopefully influenced how a great deal of players have been playing Gem, but I think you could still go more in depth on these things.
    Last edited by Apostate; 12-09-2011 at 10:43 PM.

  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by Apostate View Post
    I reviewed things again and I'd like to make a few comments and pose a question or two:

    First there are two REALLY useful things in there that I had always had problems with, and I am glad you pointed out. I didn't know you can give items to Fire with the courier, which is really good to know. I also didn't know that you can hotkey Gemini so that you can level his abilities even while in ult form. I had always been very annoyed by having to merge in order to level abilities. Question: If you put say a second point in ultimate while in ultimate form, does it immediately increase movespeed, magic armor, and spell damage? These two facts are invaluable even to me after having played him so often.

    My second major point that I'm really curious about is your brief, unexplained mention of soloing kongor. I have never attempted this until far later in the game when I already have fairly tiered out items, and I did it in Gemini form to take advantage of the Brutalizer permastun. Can you give me a replay where you do this? Is this your main reason for getting Abyssal as early as you do?

    Third, you have a fairly serious typo in your ult description that says level one ult has 270 movespeed. (lol)

    Fourth; I want to pick at your order of operations as far as buying things. What I have always used is this method, without any real problems:

    :FortifiedBracelet::FortifiedBracelet::LoggersHatc het:
    :BolsteringArmband::MightyBlade:

    I then do NOT immediately finish the frostbrand, the recipe gives no immediate benefits to ult form other than consolidating item space which you don't need to do. Then I go:

    :FortifiedBracelet::FortifiedBracelet::MightyBlade :
    :BolsteringArmband::MightyBlade::MightyBlade:

    Easy to get by the 20 minute mark, maybe 25 in a bad game. Gives you a total of something like 85 strength at this point, which is ridiculous for that early in the game. I find that this much health this early in the game is essential to how I play Gem. The loss of the TP slot is rarely important, I don't use TPs at all until much later usually for clutch escapes when someone can finally do enough damage to threaten me. Keeping the wolves spread and one with the team makes being able to defend not contingent on having a TP anyways.

    From there I think our builds sort of meet up. I only go Abyssal if I feel like I need it, which I usually don't. I would much rather get my Frostburn, Brutalizer, Steamboots and finally Shrunken finished.

    Fifth; I feel like if you want this to be premium (which it should be) then you should add a section that critically and mathematically reviews the benefits of all "viable" luxury items for Gemini, those items being Nullfire, Charged Hammer, Savage Mace, Rift Shards, Wing Bow, Frostwulf, Heart, Geometers, and possibly Symbol of Rage. Lethe has done some math for these items already and it would be interesting if you could include that to help people better understand why and when they should get certain items. You also don't really interact with the possibility that someone might find themselves with 3K+ gold that they haven't spent, and why even then they shouldn't invest in a Axe or Dancing Blade.

    Sixth; I think your list of enemies and allies should be expanded. Personally I see Torturer as the biggest contender for worst enemy, due to his ability to harass you so much mid and also because his strong aoe is very difficult to avoid in team fights lategame. A section dealing with the most difficult mids to go up against might be worthwhile.

    It's already a fantastic guide that's hopefully influenced how a great deal of players have been playing Gem, but I think you could still go more in depth on these things.
    Thanks for your input and typo correction. First of all, to answer your mechanics question, no. you need to ult again before your level up takes effect.

    You can solo kongor pretty much the moment you get your abyssal and especially if you have your ult on cooldown. Simply attack kongor and alternate your wolves so that when one takes too much damage, he is pulled back and then leaches back most of the lost life while the other tanks, rinse, repeat. You could always just let one wolf go down to almost no hp, merge, ult again, and continue that way.

    About your item order suggestion, I do not use the arm band for an icebrand. I use it for steam boots. I insist on carrying a tp always. It is extremely important and will save your life far more than any other item you can put in that slot and its only 135 gold. at this point I have something like :FortifiedBracelet::FortifiedBracelet::MightyBlade ::Steamboots::HomecomingStone: . Brutalizer will go relatively unused at the point in the game that I have these items (not even 20 minutes) because I'll almost never leave ult form at this point. Shrunken head is far, far, far into the future. No way I'd start building toward that. As such, I use the last item slot for abyssal and finish up the frostbrand/frostburn for a full :Steamboots::FortifiedBracelet::FortifiedBracelet::AbyssalSkull: midgame inventory. You'll find that this combo utilizes those slots most effectively during the mid game. Now you can start throwing the more gemini-suited items into the mix to replace those bracers :Brutalizer::NullfireBlade::ShrunkenHead::SavageMa ce:

    Brutalizer isn't that great of a stat item. It's over 1k gold for a recipe that only benefits gemini and is quite poor and consolidating slots. As such, I only get it when I know Gemini is going to see a reasonable amount of action.

    :Steamboots: is 26 strength for 3600 gold and 2 item slots where :MightyBlade::MightyBlade::MightyBlade: is 30 strength for 3000 gold and 3 item slots. Also, the steamboots/icebrand are MUCH more versatile and allow you to fight and chase with Gemini if necessary. It's up to you to decide if 600 gold and 4 strength is worth and item slot and the benefits that :Steamboots: give to gemini.

    those sections will certainly be expanded the moment I have time

  17. #77
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    How important is getting an early Kongor kill to your momentum? Is it as cookie-cutter "you should do this" as it is with say, War Beast? I'm just curious if this is why you have Abyssal as core, and why you get it as early as you do. At that point in the game you're looking at about 30 total bonus damage between the wolves, maybe 15-20 points of heal per attack, and then fairly unimportant armor and mana regen that Gemini doesn't really need. I've gotten Abyssal but I don't think it is a good survivability item OR a good DPS item. Even as a hybrid I don't find it that impressive on Gemini.

    As for the way I build him--the idea is that you get ALL the strength that you will be getting from your planned items first, then you build the other parts. It doesn't matter if you won't get the Shrunken til the 40 minute mark, because you won't finish the other items and get enough gold for the Shrunken until around then anyways. That's just how I see it. I've been really happy with how this build performs, thought I'd share it.

  18. #78
    best gemini i ever played against buttraped my entire team at like 45 minutes our RA was doing good then somehow gemini comes out lategame and dominates and 1v5's our entire team basically

    was a 1800 MMR game (most players 1800+)

    forgot to remember the replay but dayum, made me think gemini is pretty op

    gemini's items were something like 3 hearts and 3 wingbows. something crazy like that

  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by Apostate View Post
    How important is getting an early Kongor kill to your momentum? Is it as cookie-cutter "you should do this" as it is with say, War Beast? I'm just curious if this is why you have Abyssal as core, and why you get it as early as you do. At that point in the game you're looking at about 30 total bonus damage between the wolves, maybe 15-20 points of heal per attack, and then fairly unimportant armor and mana regen that Gemini doesn't really need. I've gotten Abyssal but I don't think it is a good survivability item OR a good DPS item. Even as a hybrid I don't find it that impressive on Gemini.

    As for the way I build him--the idea is that you get ALL the strength that you will be getting from your planned items first, then you build the other parts. It doesn't matter if you won't get the Shrunken til the 40 minute mark, because you won't finish the other items and get enough gold for the Shrunken until around then anyways. That's just how I see it. I've been really happy with how this build performs, thought I'd share it.
    Around level 16 with stats, gemini will have about 16 armor.
    The following is Macrohard's graph demonstrating approximately how much armor one should aim to have given certain amounts of hp
    shoutout to him for being awesome.


    With icebrand, steamboots, and two bracers at level 17 with stats you will have 2200 hp and 16 armor approximately. As you can see from the graph, you should have about 21 armor before getting anymore hp to ensure you are spending your survivability gold optimally. So, in actuality even though you say that Gemini does not need armor, he does. Abyssal takes him right up to 21 just like we want. In case you did not know, pure armor propagates to your ult form as well. As such, abyssal is preferable as a survivability item over more raw +hp.

    That isn't all, however. The aura increases %base damage. Seeing as all of Fire and Ice's damage is base damage, that's quite a bit. 20 on each wolf to be exact given my above scenario of level 17 with those items. What other item is going to give your wolves +20 damage disregarding the other perks. A Nullfire for over 1000 gold more?
    The heal is also 20 per attack btw

    The ability to solo kong is just another great perk. It really puts you in a good position to create pressure and gives you an important tool to force team fights with. It's really just an extremely useful ability to have. It's extremely annoying and frightening for the other team at worst and a game changer at best.

    Finally, that .8 mana regen gives Gemini a small mana boost that is not unwelcomed. He spams a lot of skills and doesn't have much in the way of regen, so this rounds out that issue rather well.

    Oh yeah, and all of that stuff above? It costs 2000 gold.

    It's just a matter of priorities and item space. You just don't have room for all those mighty blades and you have more important items to build. You want boots, you want an Abyssal, you don't want to sell your bracers any time soon, and cutting TPs is an absolute no no.

    Also, I already showed you that :Steamboots: is almost strictly better than :MightyBlade::MightyBlade:
    :MightyBlade:

    Also, to clear up one slight confusion, you CAN solo kong without an abysal with
    :Steamboots::FortifiedBracelet::FortifiedBracelet: at level 17, but it requires a double ult and forces you to merge at the end to finish him off, leaving you pretty crippled. It also takes well over a minute than with abyssal and is impractical. Soloing kong with abyssal requires no merging whatsoever and takes exactly 1 minute, leaving you with one full hp wolf and one 3/4 hp wolf (assuming they both started at full)

    Last edited by demonwing; 12-10-2011 at 05:15 AM.

  20. #80
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    Very well, I am convinced that Abyssal is in fact very beneficial. I did not know that pure armor transferred; that is useful to know.

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