Gemini is one of my favorite heroes atm but i dont really get how good can u really gank lanes with his lame mana pool early on without having a bottle or any mana regen. That too much restrict your ganking potential. I spend most of the game in Ulty form and blessed orbs make all the spells so MUCH spammable and using ulty > normal form > ulty basically heals you by a high amount and utilizing the bottle cant hurt.
I get your point and all but still playing him as a ganker/semi carry seems nice to me. I am all about being openminded and all but i dont see how do you overcome the mana issues then and dont u then just leave the mid free farm if he knows whats hes doing early on as well as letting have all the rune control??? Still you can atleast level your skills for early game stability since as i said few early stats wont help you.
Well i will try your build a few games and check the replays as i am interested and dont wanna be biased xD.
EDIT : also you mention lategame you should fight in gemini form=? which i think is very wrong as you ulty has about 25 armor with decent items 1900 - 2500 hp (depends on your items) and 200 - 240 damage each which is GODLY. Also if 1 of your wolf gets focused you just ult > escape/regroup > continue fighting. He can really carry due to his high survivability and excelent damage later on!!!
Last edited by FlameStick; 12-01-2011 at 04:48 PM.
My custom map -> Pacman HoN Style
From now on I'll just direct people to watch the replays. Remember those are old unrefined replays. They are still very good, however. I'll be updating with new reps soon.
Thanks for your input though. I was too harsh earlier
When did I say that you dont do "Teleport the wolf at the fountain to your other wolf in the field"?????? That was clearly the intention. You can use the courier to give fire a tp while it is at base. Then you use fires spell to go out to ice.
70961529 - from an hour ago
from the other day:
70360201 < great example of using the combo to kill mid (at lvl 7), then refill max mana at well. Then I proceed to kill another and another with the same combo over and over after refilling health and mana.
Oh and you definately should be in main form a fair amount of time. Simply having the ability to blink in or out is critical.
Last edited by Green; 12-01-2011 at 05:48 PM.
You really just seem to not be able to fathom initiating in main form and splitting--- which is kinda mind boggling.
For some reason you have it ingrained in your head that you have to start in ult form, meaning that it requires you to merge and end in main form.
Twin Strike has huge range and goes quickly, as well as over obstacles and you can fire it into fog. You can not do these things with ult form leaps. Far easier to set up kills by starting with twin strike and splitting after/later.
Starting in split form gives you:
I know which one I'd choose.
And if you don't need all the damage from the second combo, it doesn't matter because you still have more opportunities to escape, simply by virtue of maintaining more skills off cd at a given time -- it's a smarter play.
Consider your strategy. I start in ult and do this: blink-breath-split-leap-leap-breath-breath. I haven't killed my enemy, so I recombine to use blink/breath again. At this point, if help arrives for him, I can blink away instead. Once I've used that blink though, I have no escape mechanism for a good chunk of time. If help arrives, I'm done. And if I keep trying to get that last hit for the kill, instead of blinking away, I'm dead.
Consider Demonwing's strategy. I start split and do this: leap-leap-breath-breath-combine-blink-breath. At this point, if help arrives, I have more options, and I can actually still get the kill I wanted, maybe kill whoever showed up to help too, and get away. I can split-leap-leap-breath-breath. This will more surely kill my main target than the options available to me at this point in your strategy (blink-breath). Furthermore, once I'm done with that, I can recombine to get yet another blink (away, if necessary), and breath (which may help me get a kill on the guy who came to help if I decide to go for it).
Your strategy does less damage, has less utility, and leaves you more vulnerable.
And this is why you stay split and don't re-combine when you don't absolutely have to.
But if you're still not convinced, then you should probably write your own guide as an alternative. Demonwing's playstyle is very effective. I solo-queue with it and have ~70% winrate with Gemini. If you're solo-queuing in my bracket, that's a lot.
I rarely, rarely ever find myself in a situation where I can't position myself well enough to initiate from ult form. In a vast majority of situations, I can initiate with no difficulty from ult form and never have to use twin strike to initiate.
The point is: unless for some reason your position is such that you have to initiate with twin strike, you should start in ult form.
2) I could prob get a >70% win rate in the 1600 bracket with 6x steamboots on gemini. That doesnt make it right.
Green, there are a couple key concepts that you seem to be missing.
Firstly, let's throw the mmr argument out the window because I'm higher than you.
Gemini's ult cools down while he is in Fire and Ice form. I feel like you do not understand this. This allows you to have essentially a "double ult" during team fights if you initiate with Fire and Ice while your ult is off cooldown. It allows you to ult again if you so desire immediately after you merge, which by itself is an extreme pro to initiating with ult form.
Unfortunately for your argument, however, that is not all. Initiating in Gemini form is very dangerous. Every point of damage you take is permanent throughout the fight and if you get stunned with a little bit of magic burst you'll be down to half HP in no time. Also, do not think that opponents will not stun or silence you during your channeling time when you start growling at them to split. Good opponents will certainly stun you immediately. When you split, you'll have 2 dangerously low hp wolves that get you essentially nothing but a few hundred extra points of magical burst.
Initiating with 2 wolves, however, highly mitigates your potential threats assuming they are handled properly. Fight until one of your wolves gets low (there will always be a tendency to focus one wolf even if the opponents are skilled. Single target spells are single target spells after all and good micro can mitigate a lot of aoes that hit both wolves at the same time. They cannot simply ignore you entirely). After a wolf gets to a dangerous hp threshold, merge back with the other to very high hp and use your skills with Gemini. You now have the option to split again for full cooldown resets on Fire and Ice and now both wolves are back to high hp.
Also, you are extremely infatuated with gemini's "burst" (which is not really all too bursty as full combos take quite a long time to complete as opposed to parasite or pebbles who do all of their damage within 1 second.) and his combo. Initiating with fire and ice with your ult off cooldown as rosicky said gives you
as a "maxed out combo" (which you should nearly never actually "combo" per say because you should save your merges for key times but whatever floats your boat)
initiating with Gemini gives you max
Your replay shows you killing a player at level 7. This is somewhat irrelevant to our conversation because my build reliably kills opponents at 6 the moment I hit 6
As one last note, your statement that being in Gemini form constantly is the correct way to play is incorrect. Firstly, it does not turn your ult cooldown which allows you to "double ult" as I described above. Furthermore, against any type of stun or burst heavy team your blink will not cut it. You have much more survivability in Fire and Ice form as you can merge out of a stun or out of a lot of burst damage (back to your full hp wolf) and simply blink away much more reliably.
You should study the mechanics of this hero more before you make arguments about him. Your arguments demonstrate perhaps an unclear conception of how his ult works. I accept criticism, but your arguments are simply self-contradicting and illogical.
I knew from the minute I watched the spotlight I don't have what it takes to play this guy, so I skipped him, but another thread mentioned your guide being really good and in-depth so I checked it out and...
Just wanted to say I'm really impressed with the amount of detail and effort that went into this, right from the start with your in depth discussion of his primary and secondary stats. I'd really like to see more like this, even though like I said, I personally have no use for this one. GOOD WORK
Look at the bolded line above and reread what I said. Since when does a "fair amount of time" translate to "being in gemini form constantly".
And how did I make a mmr argument? The other poster brought mmr into the equation.
You are really a joke. Regardless of whether how you play gemini is best, you simply have ridiculously bad reading comprehension.
I still suggest that you try him out, though. Practice makes perfect regardless of your overall HoN skill level and he is very rewarding to play. Playing Gemini also seemed to help my overall map awareness when playing other heroes as well.
I put a lot of effort into this guide because, before I wrote this, playing Gemini was completely unexplored territory. Where every other guide (although very well written and a lot of effort is put into them. I do not discount them I assure you) kind of reiterates things that have been tried and tested many times and that many people already know, this Gemini guide is really a brand new concept, which is exciting to me.
"You are very confused. You START in main form."
"Oh and you definitely should be in main form a fair amount of time. Simply having the ability to blink in or out is critical."
Perhaps you should work on your writing skills as opposed to myself working on reading skills.
Every post emphasized being in main form. You use an ambiguous phrase "a fair amount" which, in the context you present (given that you always initiate and periodically wander around in normal form for your blink as you state) means at least "a majority of the time".
Also, you were the first one to mention mmr. I believe you mentioned it multiple times. Look back
Regardless, your writing skills or lack thereof are completely irrelevant and, as you already stated in your last sentence that you no longer hold interest in Gemini's actual mechanics, you should have no further input concerning this thread.
As always, however, thank you for your opinion
Last edited by demonwing; 12-01-2011 at 11:22 PM.
Demonwing has answered each of your posts with logical arguments based on the mechanics of the hero. Where's yours?
You keep saying in different words 'my playstyle is better because I have had good experiences with it', but you don't offer any logical explanation to counter the extremely detailed, logical explanations that Demonwing is offering for his playstyle. You have no basis in the mechanics to back you up, you just expect everyone to somehow believe that your way is superior because it has worked for you a couple of times. That's not an argument. It's an unsupported statement.
Your way has worked for you in the past. Great. Congrats. That's not an argument against Demonwing, but his arguments against your playstyle make sense. Just because you haven't encountered the limitations of your playstyle yet, it doesn't mean that it is the optimal way to play the hero.
By the way, and I will add this to my main post, I strongly support mentoring, so if you specifically want in-game help with Gemini, throw me a PM with some available times and I'll be more than happy to play a game with you and try to improve your Gem play. I run on Eastern time and scrim nearly every night around 10-11PM onward so evenings before that time on any day is best.
After rereading my guide I've noted down a lot of small editing mistakes and some holes in my micro section. Also, those replays are old and need to be updated. I need to expand on some situational items and slightly tweak a couple more things, like my discussion on how to play mid. After that, I'll consider the guide finished and will just update it according to new patches.
Also, allow to me quickly address Gemini's balance. I have not played against a good gemini player in all of my games, so I do not have any real experience against him. I would lean toward him being relatively balanced in his current state because I am aware of all his weaknesses, but, of course, the issue has not come up yet (I'm actually extremely surprised I have not seen any QQ threads about gemini at all ever except for maybe the first day he was out which hardly counts. They all claim that he is UP if anything)
I am very concerned that, if Gemini is nerfed in the future, it will be too much. He almost certainly does not need a buff as I see it now, but I could see reasoning behind maybe an ult cooldown nerf to be 80/70/60 seconds or maybe slightly longer. This is the only thing that I find may be too powerful on him. If that still does not address the issue, then perhaps a very small stats reduction of something like 10/5/0% reduction on the ult. I fear that if people begin to learn how to play gemini well there will be a huge backlash on the forums resulting in some ridiculous nerf like "Gemini's cooldowns do not continue to run while in ult form" that would totally break the hero and render him unusable despite notsoundingall that bad. Lower skilled players perhaps do not have the proper tools to utilize him fully so maybe it will never be an issue.
Just wanted to bring up my concerns if nerfs for Gemini are ever called for (which is likely in the future perhaps after he comes out of EA and more people can pick him up) and my views on his current balance and possible changes. I get "gj pay to win so OP" by at least one player in around 90% of my games with Gem. The complainers generally know nothing about his skills or mechanics and almost never attempt to do anything to counter him. Many times I'll start fighting someone with Ice while Fire is at fountain and I get a wall of raging allchat when I port him in, merge to full health, and ult again for the kill as if they didn't see it coming from a mile away. If you're being engaged by a 40% hp ice with no mana in the forest what did you think was going to happen once you blew your skills on it? Did you think the Gemini player just likes giving away free kills or something?
edit: At the same time, I've had a lot of players pick a counter or two and play very well against me. When people know what Gem's skills do and are skilled players themselves, I have tough games. One single good Behemoth, for example, can singlehandedly make team fights extremely difficult for me and general good team positioning early game can minimize the amount of damage I do.
Last edited by demonwing; 12-02-2011 at 10:20 AM.
I've also seen at least one guy who tried Gemini out a few times basically say that the hero needs to be made easier to play because he gets frustrated by things like: you can't use items on the ulti, the split/recombine takes time to cast, and the forced 800 range on twin fangs is unnecessary and makes it too hard to land. I completely disagree with calls to make Gemini easier to play, and would be just as disappointed if they lowered the skillcap on the hero as I would be if they outright nerfed him.
Haven't been posting for a while and now this discussion arises. I'm fearing people are getting to know what a powerhouse gemini can be. However...
Gemini is perfect. Balance-wise, risk-to-reward-ratio-wise, funfactor-wise. He's the hero that will make me stay in HoN after dota2 comes out. No contest.
My sub-account - PopCokeSoda has 40% gemini play, using a refined version of demonwing's tactics, my MMR is reaching 1800 after 60 games. I go immortal on a daily basis and sometimes put in an annihilation. One of my clip is in the latest top 5 plays of the week (however I had to initiate using gemini form) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRrsZHJuqnQ. All this, just to say that I fully support demonwing's tactic and going anything else seems like a downgrade from the perfect strategy (also, I wanted to boast a bit more ).
The great list of hard and soft skills you need, to play HoN!