Gemini

[[f13]Demonwing]

Big update. Minor change to skillbuild and huge change to item build. Tell me if you like it better.

[[AnaI]naxrusnekro]

Sadly I can't come with any suggestions on how to make the guide better since I am not to good at that stuff :P

But what I can tell you is that I have been raping with this build almost every game if I can pull of some successful ganks and control the lane alright - so I just wanted to say ty!!! For giving me me an opportunity to get better at the hero I love so much Please keep up the good work, you are awesome

[Lethe]

I would prefer to invest into a pure tank (heart) over hybrid (frostburn), although I admit it is personal preference.

[Apostate]

I think that if you have 2000 health at level 16, that should be enough durability to invest in damage instead. I am not a fan of the pure investment in durability items.

I've tried a hardcore tank build that focuses on just CCing with the brutalizer and surviving as long as you can, and while it works it is not as valuable as his midgame damage potential.

That said, I've been playing him at a lower MMR bracket. I would appreciate a thorough explanation so I can better understand why.

[[REC]wYnDoN]

I'm a big fan of diffusal tho, since it gives stats in your ulti form and a badass proc in your gemini form. If you really master - what you call - graciously taking damage, then going too many items for hp instead of dmg seems like badly spent money, because the stunts you can pull off in teamfights, where people aren't as focused on pinning you down, with all the other heroes surrounding them, are just amazing. Check out my replay where I got 2 annihilations and an immortal, using the soulscream --> frostburn --> abyssal --> diffusal --> savage mace build, below 40 minutes of game (600 gpm).

69889950 (sub-account = PopCokeSoda)

[[f13]Demonwing]

I think that if you have 2000 health at level 16, that should be enough durability to invest in damage instead. I am not a fan of the pure investment in durability items.

I've tried a hardcore tank build that focuses on just CCing with the brutalizer and surviving as long as you can, and while it works it is not as valuable as his midgame damage potential.

That said, I've been playing him at a lower MMR bracket. I would appreciate a thorough explanation so I can better understand why.

I do begin to invest in damage at around 2k hp on each wolf. With my recommended build, you will wind up around that area by level 16. Realize that not many (especially low MMR) players even know what all of Gemini's skillset does. In addition, not many 5 man pub teams have the ability to kill a very good Gemini player.
At lower MMR, not only do people not try to pick to counter Gemini but, even if they did, most teams cannot coordinate enough to burst him down. In higher MMR brackets you play the same people a lot, so instead of starting with fresh players who knew nothing about my gameplay, in my games people are knowledgeable and know exactly what's coming.

A good Behe, Magmus, Midas, or Tempest Counterpick can really shut down your tanking ability. Seeing two of them on the other team is GG if you go a less tanky build (and extremely debilitating otherwise). Remember that even though you look at your wolves and go "yea 2k hp nice", realize that they have no damage block, normal magic armor until level 3 after which they basically get vestments, and no actual escape or tanking ability. The only thing exceptionally "tanky" about them is their ability to merge and split (and the fact that there are two of them). Good teams know this and can counter it with a little bit of effort especially after Sheepsticks begin to come out. Sheep one wolf while you stun pwn the other, for example. Not often will you see people unload 2k damage on one wolf while they let the other wander about scott-free and merge at his own leisure.

Furthermore, there is another reason it is better to invest in damage items on a more theoretical level.

When building heroes, you should consider what properties they possess that are important to playing them and the effects of items on those properties, attempting to find a bottleneck.
Being able to intuit what is important on a hero takes experience.
On Gemini, his important properties that make him function are Fire and Ice's magic "burst" damage, physical sustained damage, and survivability.
Furthermore. furthermore Gemini himself has Physical sustained damage, survivability, and mobility.

Those are a lot of factors to consider on one hero. Double the normal amount in fact.

Let's look at Fire and Ice's properties that we try to stress during early/mid game.
Their magic burst damage cannot be improved with items. Spell Shards does improve them but the effects are extremely nominal and SpellShards gives no stats for Fire and Ice AND spellshards is useless on Gemini form.
Although items do not influence your magic damage, your level does. Levels 11 and 16 boost your ult's magic damage by quite a bit, so perhaps making a gameplay change to focus a lot of attention on leveling quickly is warranted (I do, indeed, focus on leveling quickly).

Their physical sustained damage can be improved through agi items. consider how much is enough, however. At level 16 with just the Abyssal skull that I recommended even before the Firebrand your wolves are doing a total of 300+ physical dps between each other. This is a very large amount of damage. Consider how much difference there is between 300 dps and 340 dps (adding on a Nullfire, for example) In addition, how much of that damage will actually be utilized in a fight? The wolves are pretty mobile, but not that mobile. The chances of them being able to sit in one location hitting somebody for an extended period of time are small, and if no other hero in the game at that point would really be able to take 300 dps, then additional damage is not really necessary. Remember that the wolves already do large amounts of damage because they double your damage output. Gemini has a large agi gain and you are putting points into stats at well, making your physical damage more than sufficient.

Their survivability is very questionable without any help. With a traditional hero build (no stats, quick steam boots), they'll be at maybe 600-700 hp at level 6 and maybe a bit over 1000 at level 16. No matter how much physical dps you have, if you have 1000 hp on fragile wolves, you won't get anywhere against decent oponenets. The other two properties we have already discussed and identified our item build and gameplay positions on, so it seems that survivability is a huge bottleneck. As such, I focus on survivability for early game and a portion of mid game.

I do find that after 2k hp, any more hp is very inefficient to buy (if you can take down a 2k hp wolf, you can take down a 3k hp wolf) so I begin focusing on damage. Abyssal gives such a huge damage increase that I find it, alone, a sufficient final item for Fire and Ice.

I'll just briefly mention that the Shrunken takes care of Gemini's Survivability, Savage takes care of his physical damage , and your already built Frostburn and furthermore a brutalizer if you choose to pick it up takes care of his horrible mobility so take that into consideration as you transition into late game. My descriptions of each of his properties would be similar in nature to those of Fire and Ice.

I'm a big fan of diffusal tho, since it gives stats in your ulti form and a badass proc in your gemini form. If you really master - what you call - graciously taking damage, then going too many items for hp instead of dmg seems like badly spent money, because the stunts you can pull off in teamfights, where people aren't as focused on pinning you down, with all the other heroes surrounding them, are just amazing. Check out my replay where I got 2 annihilations and an immortal, using the soulscream --> frostburn --> abyssal --> diffusal --> savage mace build, below 40 minutes of game (600 gpm).

Team Fights are the most dangerous place for you. A good team will try to perma-stun you all fight and, unless you have some sort of hard carry to take some attention too, they'll usually succeed. You can't do anything if a very good Behemoth block your two wolves off from each other or if they sheep the wolf that they aren't bursting down so he can't merge. Fire and Ice already do tons of damage. They need more survivability before you pile on more of what they already have.

To address your point on Diffusal, though, it is a good item on Gemini after your Abyssal, I agree. I use it as a replacement for Brutalizer in many games depending on the enemy lineup. If the enemy team has nothing or nothing important to purge, there is no vital need for a Diffusal over a Brutalizer.

Finally, I get a lot of Immortals and not annihilation for some reason only quad kills with Gemini even in 1900 bracket occasionally. That doesn't really do much to improve my argument, though, does it?

[[REC]wYnDoN]

Very thorough analysis and we probably have the same idea about playing gemini, even though I didn't put it in words, like you did.
However in teamfights when you argument about their team perma-stunning gemini, you seem to forget about your own team also participating. The only scenario I can imagine, where the other team has the luxury of actually focusing me down like that is when a teamfight consists of my 2 wolves and the other team But joking aside, it is extremely hard to pin down gemini when the teamfight is actually a 5v5 and at least half of your team did some decent picks or you weren't taken out by complete surprise.
I find diffusal a good pick-up mainly because, gemini burns down mana like magebane with it. Brutalizer is nice aswell, I just prefer diffusal for the massive slow, reliability (as in, not having to count on the lucky proc) and purge.

[[f13]Demonwing]

bump. Tell me what you want me to add. I'll expand the items a bit and add situational stuff and then expand the replays section with details. Proof Read a bit and maybe expand on team fights and synergies. That's all I can think of though.

[Apostate]

You could add a few pushing tactics (use one wolf to block enemy creeps while the other tanks the tower). A bit more on general wolf positioning and how to micro them in fights might be useful too.

I <3 my Gemini

[[f13]Demonwing]

Match 70220051 really exemplifies how I try to play Gemini. I think I play him with better technique than ever in this game. I suggest you watch it if you are really interested in getting better with Gemini. 1800+ mmr game with a bunch of 1900s in the mix.

[[AAT]Oiphal]

Match 70220051 really exemplifies how I try to play Gemini. I think I play him with better technique than ever in this game. I suggest you watch it if you are really interested in getting better with Gemini. 1800+ mmr game with a bunch of 1900s in the mix.

One small little thing about HP pots, I generally use mine at the same time you use yours but I generally drop a bracer so that it effectively heals for a bit more. It's risky but I think it's worth it to get that extra effectiveness out of the hp pot + ult at 6.


Also, do you have a game of you going mid as hb? I've played with you as legion mid and you did the same tactics as in this game. (gank bot with tower dive, recombine to chase remaining hero. Couldn't get him this time though). Just curious if your choice to gank bot is due to being legion mid or not.

Another question - it appears as though the wolves can hid in the trees in places where heroes can't or have a smaller collision size. Is that an accurate assumption or am I just mistaking juke spots again?


One last thing - I think a more competent hag would've killed fire with ult + scream when you were mid with 540 hp and ice hadn't made it back to the well yet.

[[f13]Demonwing]

One small little thing about HP pots, I generally use mine at the same time you use yours but I generally drop a bracer so that it effectively heals for a bit more. It's risky but I think it's worth it to get that extra effectiveness out of the hp pot + ult at 6.


Also, do you have a game of you going mid as hb? I've played with you as legion mid and you did the same tactics as in this game. (gank bot with tower dive, recombine to chase remaining hero. Couldn't get him this time though). Just curious if your choice to gank bot is due to being legion mid or not.

Another question - it appears as though the wolves can hid in the trees in places where heroes can't or have a smaller collision size. Is that an accurate assumption or am I just mistaking juke spots again?


One last thing - I think a more competent hag would've killed fire with ult + scream when you were mid with 540 hp and ice hadn't made it back to the well yet.

Yes I try to use my HP pots before bracers arrive, but I tend to find it unnecessary to drop them just to use an HP pot. In some cases, perhaps. Usually I'm not missing much more than 400 health even with Bracers, though. It's still a good practice, though. I could probably do it more often.

Fire and Ice have basically the same collision as normal heroes. All the juke spots I use are just normal juke spots

Yeah, she almost definitely could have killed me. In her defense, though, she would have had to go back to the well because she would have been out of mana and out of regen. Also, her ult CD was probably more useful at another lane instead of on just me, who can recover from my death instantly.
I did not notice that she could kill me at the time, though.

[[f13]Demonwing]

Oh and yes I generallywill go legion bot hellbourne top lanes to gank but in reality I pick whichever lane
1. is the highest priority (eg. carry lane)
2. has the least heroes with escape mechs. (I'm going to be reluctant to gank a bubbles)
and
3. is doing the worst
4. Is pushed out the most


It just happens to usually be Hb top/Legion bot

[Apostate]

I had my first game where it truly went late; I had to deal with a Swiftblade and a Chronos AND a wildsoul on the enemy team as well. It should have been an easy win, unfortunately Bubbles had several unfortunate deaths against Chronos that left him underleveled and Chronos overleveled throughout the early game.

70449308

I feel that the build progression of this works much better than going for the bigger stat items for exactly the reasons you had articulated. Thriving on that early momentum is crucial.

[[f13]Demonwing]

I had my first game where it truly went late; I had to deal with a Swiftblade and a Chronos AND a wildsoul on the enemy team as well. It should have been an easy win, unfortunately Bubbles had several unfortunate deaths against Chronos that left him underleveled and Chronos overleveled throughout the early game.

70449308

I feel that the build progression of this works much better than going for the bigger stat items for exactly the reasons you had articulated. Thriving on that early momentum is crucial.

Thanks for sharing
minor updates incoming including a better replay section and some editing.
Oh, also expanded items. Be sure to leave feedback if you liked or disliked it! Over 1000 views someone has to have an opinion

[Rosicky7]

Demonwing -- great guide. Really great.

I've been working on perfecting the playstyle based on your older version of the guide (geo/frostwolf were in it, which made sense to me at the time). I didn't see that you'd made updates until now!

I noticed, as you seem to have addressed in this updated version, that I tapered way off in lategame because I went all stats to stay split -- which meant teams could focus a wolf down while the other was stunlocked/sheeped because I wasn't using a shrunken. Your new version addresses this nicely -- I had already figured out that I needed to get a shrunken and stay combined more later on, but your explanations for brutalizer/savage make sense as additional pickups. I look forward to trying out the new improved version!

I do use a slight variation on your item build, picking up soulscreams instead of bracers in the early game. I think yours may make more sense in a lot of cases, but I find myself being able to use the slightly higher damage/as from the soulscreams to decent effect early on, especially if I didn't get a solo lane for whatever reason. I play in a much lower bracket than you as well, so that might have something to do with it.

Anyway, your guide has helped me climb quickly in mmr using Gemini in solo queue, so thank you! I often get 'wtf' comments about my stats skillbuild in the beginning, but I've gotten a lot of nice compliments at the middle and end of games, all thanks to your guide! So thank you.

I never would have gotten the hero on EA, except that I came across your guide first. The playstyle sounded like a lot of fun, so I got him and haven't looked back. This is definitely the most rewarding playstyle I've come across in HoN to date.

Great work -- thanks!

[[RGTG]Green]

The key with gemini is definately to focus on stats, but I can't fathom why you would actually level stats.

at 6 with 3 in breath and 2 in stun you can "1 shot" most heroes by stunning, breathing, splitting, and using all 4 dog spells.

The stats help you for like 2 auto attacks. ????
dumb. Leveling the nukes does much more.

And if you want stats for even more mana, it is far more effective to send fire back to the well as opposed to another lane. You can pick up a TP on fire as well as getting max health/mana while never losing out on exp/cks mid.

Then, when you are nice and full health again as well as ready to 1 shot someone, you can do it again to the mid hero or use that tp stone to tp gank (which is really easy with the twin strike).



and splitting frostburn is really nice, as is picking up nullstone in a lot of situations. A good example is when the enemy team has a devo. If you are caught in gemini form, the nullstone can eat it. If you are in dogs form, you can break the ult with the other dog. Nullstone also gives good stats.

[[RiA]FlameStick]

Isnt the hibrid build better???

Like skilling

Twin
Breath
Breath
Twin
Breath
Ult
Breath
Twin
Twin
Ult
Stats
Stats
(you know the drill)

This build gives you superior early game you can use a bottle and gank and use your comboes more efficiently. I am not really sure that 10 to all stats is worth the skills you lose with this (you get 200 hp by stats and 10 dmg 10 att speed and 150 mana is it really worth the 2 spells dmg??). I dont think so.

Also item build I make :

Bottle
Steamboots
Iron shield
Blessed Orb
Blessed Orb
Nullfire/Dancing blade
Abissal skull
Blessed orb > Geomeneters
Blessed Orb > Frostwulf

There cheap stats that evolve into a great lategame build. I wouldnt sacrifice early dps for measely 6 to all stats early on which i can get from a bracer to me that seems pretty retarded as twin fang + breath + ulty + ulty spells do so much dmg early on and you can benefit greatly from bottle and rune control and it doesnt make you a cripple before lvl 6!

[[f13]Demonwing]

Demonwing -- great guide. Really great.

I've been working on perfecting the playstyle based on your older version of the guide (geo/frostwolf were in it, which made sense to me at the time). I didn't see that you'd made updates until now!

I noticed, as you seem to have addressed in this updated version, that I tapered way off in lategame because I went all stats to stay split -- which meant teams could focus a wolf down while the other was stunlocked/sheeped because I wasn't using a shrunken. Your new version addresses this nicely -- I had already figured out that I needed to get a shrunken and stay combined more later on, but your explanations for brutalizer/savage make sense as additional pickups. I look forward to trying out the new improved version!

I do use a slight variation on your item build, picking up soulscreams instead of bracers in the early game. I think yours may make more sense in a lot of cases, but I find myself being able to use the slightly higher damage/as from the soulscreams to decent effect early on, especially if I didn't get a solo lane for whatever reason. I play in a much lower bracket than you as well, so that might have something to do with it.

Anyway, your guide has helped me climb quickly in mmr using Gemini in solo queue, so thank you! I often get 'wtf' comments about my stats skillbuild in the beginning, but I've gotten a lot of nice compliments at the middle and end of games, all thanks to your guide! So thank you.

I never would have gotten the hero on EA, except that I came across your guide first. The playstyle sounded like a lot of fun, so I got him and haven't looked back. This is definitely the most rewarding playstyle I've come across in HoN to date.

Great work -- thanks!

Thanks. I'm glad it was helpful to you. As for the soulscream rings, it is a very subtle difference and certainly will not be gamebreaking in any way. I hold quite firmly to Bracers being more effective stat items on Gemini and I believe I outlined why in a previous post (don't remember), but if SSRs are working for you then stick with them. I'm sure you will adjust in the future if you find the need to.

The key with gemini is definately to focus on stats, but I can't fathom why you would actually level stats.

at 6 with 3 in breath and 2 in stun you can "1 shot" most heroes by stunning, breathing, splitting, and using all 4 dog spells.

The stats help you for like 2 auto attacks. ????
dumb. Leveling the nukes does much more.

And if you want stats for even more mana, it is far more effective to send fire back to the well as opposed to another lane. You can pick up a TP on fire as well as getting max health/mana while never losing out on exp/cks mid.

Then, when you are nice and full health again as well as ready to 1 shot someone, you can do it again to the mid hero or use that tp stone to tp gank (which is really easy with the twin strike).



and splitting frostburn is really nice, as is picking up nullstone in a lot of situations. A good example is when the enemy team has a devo. If you are caught in gemini form, the nullstone can eat it. If you are in dogs form, you can break the ult with the other dog. Nullstone also gives good stats.

Read an earlier post by me on the analysis between leveling stats and nukes. Stats are not primarily for damage but for HP and somewhat for mana. If you have to merge to kill the enemy mid at 6, you either need to practice your micro more or shouldn't be killing him anyway. You can kill nearly any hero with JUST wolves without merging at all. I assure you that a stats gemini will be able to output more damage than the magic damage gemini primarily because of the ability to tower dive with the +20 str from this build at level 6. Also, the wolves have higher MS than hreoes with marchers, allowing them to easily chase. The enemy hero should be dead within the same timeframe as the extremely risky leap-leap-breath-breath-merge-fangs-breath combo without blowing cooldowns or losing momentum.

I am aware that you can rotate wolves to the fountain. The way you describe is incorrect, however, and blows a useless ult cooldown. Teleport the wolf at the fountain to your other wolf in the field just as you initiate a gank so you can merge to the full health wolf after using your nukes and immediately split again for double cooldowns on your wolves' abilities. Merging just to use a tp that you get for free anyway from the fountain is a complete waste and kills your momentum.

Nullstone is a very inneficient pickup on Gemini. If you are "caught" by a devo out of ult form, then it is a gameplay issue that needs to be addressed, not an itemization issue. Also, Nullstone gives very bad stats for its price. In addition, you should never be walking around the map out of ult form. You always want to be in ult so that you are constantly running its cooldown. It's better to initiate with wolves anyway, so the only time you should be in gemini form is during a fight after your initiation and possibly slightly after until the cooldown resets.

Stick to playing Pebbles/Hag/Witch/etc. instead of playing Gemini with your style. They play that style much better.

[[f13]Demonwing]

Isnt the hibrid build better???

Like skilling

Twin
Breath
Breath
Twin
Breath
Ult
Breath
Twin
Twin
Ult
Stats
Stats
(you know the drill)

This build gives you superior early game you can use a bottle and gank and use your comboes more efficiently. I am not really sure that 10 to all stats is worth the skills you lose with this (you get 200 hp by stats and 10 dmg 10 att speed and 150 mana is it really worth the 2 spells dmg??). I dont think so.

Also item build I make :

Bottle
Steamboots
Iron shield
Blessed Orb
Blessed Orb
Nullfire/Dancing blade
Abissal skull
Blessed orb > Geomeneters
Blessed Orb > Frostwulf

There cheap stats that evolve into a great lategame build. I wouldnt sacrifice early dps for measely 6 to all stats early on which i can get from a bracer to me that seems pretty retarded as twin fang + breath + ulty + ulty spells do so much dmg early on and you can benefit greatly from bottle and rune control and it doesnt make you a cripple before lvl 6!

Note that you lose something like 200 magic damage from not leveling your skills fully early on. I forgot the exact number. Look earlier in my thread.

This build accomplishes a couple of things:

1. It destroys any type of early game momentum you may possibly accumulate with your 2100 gold buildups on 2 items.
2. It ensures that your wolves will be as thin as paper and essentially unusable except for your combo
3. Because you'll be blowing your ult cooldown and immediately merging every gank, you will never be able to use the teleport mobility of your wolves effectively and will be restricted to one gank in one location every 60 seconds.
4. makes you just want to drop Gemini and play Pebbles or Hag, who do what you are describing much better.

This build is okay. It will work sometimes to an acceptable degree. You will not do anything amazing with your build nor will you be anything more than just an average ganker with okay burst damage and some scaling potential that won't be utilized anyway because you are always ganking.

The build I propose is optimized as efficiently as I possibly can make it at this time and leaves the highest potential to be a huge impact on the game. It is not as easy or simple at all as can be seen by my long replies to everything (due to the complexity). It takes practice and skill to play Gemini well on the highest level he is playable at. If you are going to turn him into a normal, mediocre ganker then I suggest you play different heroes. You can play scout as a hard ganker, but does that mean he should be played that way?