Click here to go to the first staff post in this thread. Thread: Hero Development WIP: Druid #3

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  1. #21
    I's sorry Nome but many of ur arguments are just a pile of a logic only existing in ur own head.
    I'd build an enormous text here to explain how ur point of view that "have everything heroes doenst mean a bad thing" is wrong, but this would be really exhausting.

    I'll point out just the "too many heroes with escapes/stuns is a faulty argument". I remember back in DotA where there was a just a few heroes with "blink-like" abilities, and the bans were all around those heroes. It's pretty obvious why, positioning is like THE thing on the Action RPS scenario, wich explains why portal key is so popular and needed many nerfs such as the combat dmg cooldown. You can't build all heroes around it cuz then all others becomes crap. Myrmydon makes others good gankers/supports/lane controllers become silly at the same time because he can do all of those roles VERY WELL. Why do even question urself about picking it instead of Glacius for example? I'd only pick glacius if i get bored to play myrm, not for any other reason.

    Talking about the stuns, it's kinda the same for slows too. Just take a look at Master of Arms, the best example of a "WTF IS THIS HERO" u guys made. It really is not OP, but what is the god damn fun on building a nice team if in general all the heroes look alike in functions? Tempest is an unique type of hero cuz he offers unique situations on the battlefield and those are useful. What is unique about Master of Arms? This is just the first problem, because if you take a look at Voodoo Jester for example it's an awesome hero, but comparing a caster like him to Master of Arms for example is really fun, because to form a team, the agi "have everything" guy is far better than the int "agressive support" guy simply because he has far more disable forms and escape mechanisms that counts far more on serious games. VJ isn't a bad hero, but his unique -but risky- playstyle is far compensanted by the vast functions newer heroes have wich can be more useful and far more solid in teambattles.

    I hope you're not leaving S2 because people can't understand your logic, that would be idiotic and shows you really don't deserve to be designing heroes. You should be able to look at other's POV since ur science on hero design is very well thought, but not necesseraly correct.
    Last edited by SmashNess; 11-15-2011 at 07:53 PM.

  2. #22
    In a non mean kind of way im glad you're finished designing heroes. Honestly nothing is more annoying than monkey king being impossible to target while he uses a wealth of skills and you're stuck in a confused state not knowing what to do because HE'S IMPOSSIBLE TO TARGET.

    Also Heroes with escape mechanisms are generally toxic to game play. Giving almost every hero a " get out of jail free card " only pushes back the viability of heroes without one. I think eventually S2 will need to tone down heroes like magebane whose blink is probably one of the most overpowered escapes in the game. Lowers the risk of farming BY A LOT which further pushes back the viability of other melee heroes.

    While monkey king is melee, you hardly ever find yourself using your auto attack more than your skills.

  3. #23
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    "Mandala: This alchemical circle is imbued with harmful seals that punish the aggressive. Enemies standing on the mandala will receive an attack and movement speed slow."

    ...

    "Maṇḍala (मण्डल) is a Sanskrit word that means "circle". In the Buddhist and Hindu religious traditions their sacred art often takes a mandala form. The basic form of most Hindu and Buddhist mandalas is a square with four gates containing a circle with a center point. Each gate is in the shape of a T."

    A Mandala has nothing to do with Alchemy.

    According to Paracelsus, the Three Primes or Tria Prima are[1][2]

    • Salt (base matter)
    • Mercury (fluid connection between the High and the Low)
    • Sulfur (omnipresent spirit of life)

    ... They have their own signs.


    And if you would make a circle and read it counterclockwise with the actual fire, water, ..., ingredients, it at least would make sense.




    But that's just pathetic bullshit you came up whilst dating an Buddhist girl and watching Fullmetal Alchemist.

  4. #24
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    I think both pudding and nome had to leave like from 1 hero per week it went back to like 2 per month max? So yeah they have too many free space and nothing else to do i guess.. that just seems like it. I mean theres no proper words on what they're going to do or whatever.. well bye bye

  5. #25
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    Spoilers.
    Don't worry, S2 acknowledged all the good ideas for the avatar contest...
    So let's give Monkey King an alt avatar each week. That will show 'em
    Let's give Pebbles a limited alt avatar every 3 months as well! We did not show 'em enough!

  6. #26
    Hey Nome, do you have a list of all your implemented HoN heroes?

    http://www.neutralcreeps.com
    Bridging the Heroes of Newerth and DotA communities

  7. #27
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    A great read. (: Thanks.
    ‎.,__,.........,__,....... ______
    `.,,.*`.,,.*..|:::::: /\:_|/\
    `.,,.*`.,,.*<|:::::: ( o wo)
    -........--""-.......--"""u"'''''''''''u''''''''u

  8. #28
    ur a fkin awesome c u nt s2 pay nome and pudding more plz, is hard to find talented people like these guys

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Nome View Post
    Cthuluphant was DivA's, and it never had a night/day mechanic. In fact, that hero went from concept to completion without any ability changes... might be the only hero we've done so smoothly.

    Idejder has been musing over a night/day hero for a while now. You should bother him to complete it!
    Cthuluphant was DivA's? i've just known that.
    and btw nome why r u leaving. i haven't seen lord salforis' spotlight yet so i dont know the matter at hand. just curious that's all.

  10. #30
    Nome, if you start a company with Ms pudding to develop a game like Hon, I'll play for sure.

  11. #31
    I was waiting for this hero so much and so long, and now you tell us, that he wont be released... I hate you.

  12. #32
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    Wow. I wish I was better at writing speeches, because I'd really like to recall all of the good times. Old beta OT mostly I guess...

    What i'd like to say most is that I still love playing Meepo, and Monkey King is the only hero keeping me playing HoN.

    You've done this gaming genre one of the biggest services, and I want you to make sure to keep up the outstanding innovations.

  13. #33
    Nome, me and a couple of friends will bring you the new Druid on the next few weeks. Just wait and you'll see our tribute to you
    Galneryus - One Of The Best Power Metal Bands Ever!

    THE BLINK SCHOOL - Tips for Blink Spells

  14. #34
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    A shame you must leave s2 nome, you are a good, solid designer and your influence in the long term would have made hon into a better game. Good luck in your endeavours and please, do as much as you can before you leave.
    Universe uses HoN as means for showing us, that no matter the beauty of our plans, or how crafty our strategies are, when you develop a foolproof plan, it develops bigger and better fools. -

  15.   Click here to go to the next staff post in this thread.   #35
    Quote Originally Posted by SmashNess View Post
    I's sorry Nome but many of ur arguments are just a pile of a logic only existing in ur own head.
    I'd build an enormous text here to explain how ur point of view that "have everything heroes doenst mean a bad thing" is wrong, but this would be really exhausting.

    I'll point out just the "too many heroes with escapes/stuns is a faulty argument". I remember back in DotA where there was a just a few heroes with "blink-like" abilities, and the bans were all around those heroes. It's pretty obvious why, positioning is like THE thing on the Action RPS scenario, wich explains why portal key is so popular and needed many nerfs such as the combat dmg cooldown. You can't build all heroes around it cuz then all others becomes crap. Myrmydon makes others good gankers/supports/lane controllers become silly at the same time because he can do all of those roles VERY WELL. Why do even question urself about picking it instead of Glacius for example? I'd only pick glacius if i get bored to play myrm, not for any other reason.

    Talking about the stuns, it's kinda the same for slows too. Just take a look at Master of Arms, the best example of a "WTF IS THIS HERO" u guys made. It really is not OP, but what is the god damn fun on building a nice team if in general all the heroes look alike in functions? Tempest is an unique type of hero cuz he offers unique situations on the battlefield and those are useful. What is unique about Master of Arms? This is just the first problem, because if you take a look at Voodoo Jester for example it's an awesome hero, but comparing a caster like him to Master of Arms for example is really fun, because to form a team, the agi "have everything" guy is far better than the int "agressive support" guy simply because he has far more disable forms and escape mechanisms that counts far more on serious games. VJ isn't a bad hero, but his unique -but risky- playstyle is far compensanted by the vast functions newer heroes have wich can be more useful and far more solid in teambattles.

    I hope you're not leaving S2 because people can't understand your logic, that would be idiotic and shows you really don't deserve to be designing heroes. You should be able to look at other's POV since ur science on hero design is very well thought, but not necesseraly correct.
    You're missing the point. If there were only two heroes with blinks/stuns in the game, then yes, those two heroes would be dominant. That's not the case, however. Stuns (and escapes) are widely available. It's to the point where having more of them doesn't make the previous ones any worse for the aforementioned reasons.


    Quote Originally Posted by DrScout View Post
    "Mandala: This alchemical circle is imbued with harmful seals that punish the aggressive. Enemies standing on the mandala will receive an attack and movement speed slow."

    ...

    "Maṇḍala (मण्डल) is a Sanskrit word that means "circle". In the Buddhist and Hindu religious traditions their sacred art often takes a mandala form. The basic form of most Hindu and Buddhist mandalas is a square with four gates containing a circle with a center point. Each gate is in the shape of a T."

    A Mandala has nothing to do with Alchemy.

    According to Paracelsus, the Three Primes or Tria Prima are[1][2]

    • Salt (base matter)
    • Mercury (fluid connection between the High and the Low)
    • Sulfur (omnipresent spirit of life)

    ... They have their own signs.


    And if you would make a circle and read it counterclockwise with the actual fire, water, ..., ingredients, it at least would make sense.




    But that's just pathetic bullshit you came up whilst dating an Buddhist girl and watching Fullmetal Alchemist.
    Yeah, I did name that spell based on FMA. Also, neither MsPudding nor I are Buddhist.

    New Twitter and Blog addresses!

  16. #36
    You're just not trying to see my point. I'm not talking under ur logic because it fails on my concept.
    Just because there's a wide set of stuns on the scenario does not mean blinks are less effective. On praxis this isn't as simple as a regular equation, it's not like Stun = 1 and Blink = -2 so if we have 4 stuns on the pool then 2 heroes with blink are not overpwoered anymore.

    This necromancer hero is a proof that good heroes can be made without the need of having every type of ability on the same character. He doesn't have stuns or heavy disables, but if well played and the right items he is just as good as any other hero. And that's it, that's what we need.

  17.   Click here to go to the next staff post in this thread.   #37
    Quote Originally Posted by SmashNess View Post
    You're just not trying to see my point. I'm not talking under ur logic because it fails on my concept.
    Just because there's a wide set of stuns on the scenario does not mean blinks are less effective. On praxis this isn't as simple as a regular equation, it's not like Stun = 1 and Blink = -2 so if we have 4 stuns on the pool then 2 heroes with blink are not overpwoered anymore.

    This necromancer hero is a proof that good heroes can be made without the need of having every type of ability on the same character. He doesn't have stuns or heavy disables, but if well played and the right items he is just as good as any other hero. And that's it, that's what we need.
    So your point is basically the point of my blog post? :P

    New Twitter and Blog addresses!

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by SmashNess View Post
    You're just not trying to see my point. I'm not talking under ur logic because it fails on my concept.
    Just because there's a wide set of stuns on the scenario does not mean blinks are less effective. On praxis this isn't as simple as a regular equation, it's not like Stun = 1 and Blink = -2 so if we have 4 stuns on the pool then 2 heroes with blink are not overpwoered anymore.

    This necromancer hero is a proof that good heroes can be made without the need of having every type of ability on the same character. He doesn't have stuns or heavy disables, but if well played and the right items he is just as good as any other hero. And that's it, that's what we need.
    Your posts make no sense.
    ‎.,__,.........,__,....... ______
    `.,,.*`.,,.*..|:::::: /\:_|/\
    `.,,.*`.,,.*<|:::::: ( o wo)
    -........--""-.......--"""u"'''''''''''u''''''''u

  19. #39
    I realize that input on this after the hero has already been scrapped doesn't help much but I wonder if you had explored a design model for the hero that instead of balancing between 2 forms with a set of 4 powers for each (a lot of powers.) Instead went to 3 forms each with 1 power and an ultimate which acts as a fusion of them all or perhaps augments the existing 3 powers.


    First break Q W and E powers into a form for Int, Agi, and Str and then while in the appropriate form substitute the trasnformation ability for an active power. IE if already in Int form then the button for the int transformation becomes a moderate damage AoE attack, the Agi becomes a MS/AS buff, and the Str becomes an AoE slow, you've now simplified the design tremendously while still retaining the concept of a multiform hero.

    You could retain the powers which are triggered by the transformation such as Int form having an AoE heal around itself or Str form creating a damage shield you've now also preserved the heroes ability to be played in multiple styles depending on which forms are leveled at what priorities.

    Was this form of power segregation of 1 per form(or potentially 2 if one includes the power which is triggered by the transformation itself) ever explored in the design?

  20. #40
    Hey Nome, I was thinking of trying my hand at hero design. What would you suggest to be the best way to go about designing, proposing, and coding/executing a hero concept? I have a very specific design concept I want to capture and was hoping you could provide some advise.

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