Spirituality vs. Science

[Hat_Truck]

Please note that this is not a religion thread, so please keep your religious views to yourself.

Specifically, I want to talk about (as the title states) the concept of Spirituality vs. Science. It seems that throughout history, spirituality has always been a huge part of the human existence. It's very natural for most of us to assume or believe that there's something more to ourselves and to the world than what we can observe with our 5 senses. The problem with spirituality (or perhaps the strength of it), is that it is very hard to define, and that it differs from person to person. Spirituality, is, in its truest form, a very personal experience. Many would argue that our moral values and our tendency for altruism comes from objectives moral values influenced by natural human spirituality.

Many Scientists would argue that "Spirituality" does not exist, and is just a natural human construct, based on natural human genetics and behaviors. Many Scientists would also argue that anything that can't be defined (such as Spirituality) can't really be believed in, at least with any degree of certainty. I hear the argument often that Scientists attribute our tendency towards "Spirituality" with our inherent hyperactive agency detector; in other words to see purpose or sentience in arbitrary or natural events. The Scientific argument goes that there is a natural, genetic explanation for all human behavior, including the idea of spirituality.

Religious people who may consider themselves very "spiritual", may wonder why their views are not relevant to this thread. The reason I don't want this to become a religious discussion is that religion is, inherently, the hijacking or tainting of spirituality. If spirituality is inherently present in all of us, then it is something we should be able to find on our own, not have to be indoctrinated in to. The fact that 95% of religious people share the same religion as the society they were brought up in, means that their religion is not an intrinsic spiritual value, but a result of an external influence. The effects of external influences on people has been well-documented by Science, and thus the results of these experiences can not be qualified as "spiritual". If Spirituality does exist, it should be something that naturally exists within us, outside of the realm of Science, and which can be accessed without the influence of others.

So what do you guys think, does Spirituality exist, or can it all be explained by Science?

[[WRQ]Graviton]

science does not claim that spirituality or human behavior can be explained through genetics. Yes there are some scientists that will say that but they are the equivalent of the over religious people that think god is a fact not a belief.

[Hat_Truck]

I think you would be wrong there. There are some very good arguments about what makes people behave as they do. Many accredited Scientists do say that human behavior can be explained or defined through genetics (I'm not saying I agree with them though). Check out Daniel C. Dennett's book "Breaking the Spell: Religion as a Natural Phenomenon" in which he explains (or attempts to explain) religion and spirituality through cognitive studies and the use of Science.

[[Loli]Blueflash]

Here we go again.

[[WRQ]Graviton]

Hes hardly a real scientist and that book has hardly anything scientific. Btw I dont consider psychology to be a science. The only way we will ever explain behavior is when we understand the brain which is one of the main problems science is trying to solve.

[[SBTs]Norroar]

Evolution is just a theory!

[Smacklust]

I think you would be wrong there. There are some very good arguments about what makes people behave as they do. Many accredited Scientists do say that human behavior can be explained or defined through genetics (I'm not saying I agree with them though). Check out Daniel C. Dennett's book "Breaking the Spell: Religion as a Natural Phenomenon" in which he explains (or attempts to explain) religion and spirituality through cognitive studies and the use of Science.

Could you list some of the main arguments / studies of that book here ?

Unfortunately it is quite impossible to actually prove rock solid that a human is just a very complex machine. Its usually the hardline behaviorists that claim this. You can... of course study the human as a bio,psycho,social creature and come up with a model that you can use as a point of view to study a human, sometimes very well. Unfortunately however it is impossible to reduce humans to "just that". Many have tried and an equal amount has failed. Then again in science especially in psychology you always suffer from some level of reductionism.

I do have to somewhat side with Graviton. Scientists that argue that humans are "nothing but a..." naively believe in science like some believers naively believe in god. Both paths are bad. Especially in science, since it allows no room for self criticism thus removing 1 very important aspect of science, which is that science always strives to correct itself, and criticize itself.

Then there is the question. Why cant god, or some higher being, or some cosmic power use those psychological processes? Do they rule each other out?

[Drasha]

Evolution is just a theory!

Its a shame theory in science means some thing completly different from what it does in english.

[[SBTs]Norroar]

my name is not triassic :disclaimer:

[STDMachine]

Its a shame theory in science means some thing completly different from what it does in english.

This.

[Hat_Truck]

Could you list some of the main arguments / studies of that book here ?

Unfortunately it is quite impossible to actually prove rock solid that a human is just a very complex machine. Its usually the hardline behaviorists that claim this. You can... of course study the human as a bio,psycho,social creature and come up with a model that you can use as a point of view to study a human, sometimes very well. Unfortunately however it is impossible to reduce humans to "just that". Many have tried and an equal amount has failed. Then again in science especially in psychology you always suffer from some level of reductionism.

I do have to somewhat side with Graviton. Scientists that argue that humans are "nothing but a..." naively believe in science like some believers naively believe in god. Both paths are bad. Especially in science, since it allows no room for self criticism thus removing 1 very important aspect of science, which is that science always strives to correct itself, and criticize itself.

Then there is the question. Why cant god, or some higher being, or some cosmic power use those psychological processes? Do they rule each other out?

I'm not disagreeing with you, in fact I tend to lean a little more towards the spiritual side than Scientific when explaining many aspects of human behavior. Of course, like you said, most of it is still up for interpretation until we know more. I was just curious of people's opinions.

In terms of your final question about whether Science and "God" can co-exist; I think this is multi-faceted. In terms of a generic "spiritual god", of whom can be defined in nearly infinite ways, I don't see how Science directly contradicts with that. However, specifically defined Gods, who exist in the texts of religion, are very contradictory to Science. For example, Creationism and Evolution are not really compatible at all. The miracles that most religious books claim are improbable or impossible according to Science. The Earth is older than 6,000 years old according to Science etc.

[Smacklust]

I'm not disagreeing with you, in fact I tend to lean a little more towards the spiritual side than Scientific, when explaining many aspects of human behavior. Of course, like you said, most of it is still up for interpretation until we know more. I was just curious of people's opinions.

Ah I see

[Sauron`]

Here we go again.

This

[Smacklust]

It is the improbability of macro evolution(life originates from Microorganism) that actually makes me doubt it. As an example. The complex biological structures such as the electric motor in some bacteria, it can't be mutated in 1 stroke randomly. There has to be many mutations spanning many generations for that thing to be born. And as long as it's not 100% working it's actually a disadvantage to that said organism, thus that specimen gets taken out by natural selection. It's just very very very improbable. Almost impossible...
Some have explained this by saying that that motor is somehow a sum of many different smaller parts that just happened to fuse, but yeah... I don't know.
Evolution inside species is true however and should not be questioned. Its a fact. Heck by continuing that i could see some species branch out even, but from microorganisms to lets say... frogs. I just see too many problems with it.

*Edit* I dont think OP wanted this to be the subject of this thread though

[xmangosx]

OP wants to hear:

1. Scientist have it all figured out so far, they have a pretty good grasp of things.
2. Spirits do not exist (even though God is a spirit, angels are spirits, and we have a spirit/soul)
3. Spirituality is just something that humans made up so they can feel more important than a dung beetle.
4. Science can explain everything and anything using our 5 senses.

I'm just saying this is what he would like to hear. God is super natural, spirits are supernatural, you will find out when you die, or when Jesus returns.

[Proletariat]

*Edit* I dont think OP wanted this to be the subject of this thread though

No, I doubt it was. I doubt anybody here really wants to school you on how wrong you are about evolution. We'd rather just laugh.

[Nolifer]

i love u all : )

[[SBTs]Norroar]

[[LsE]Malefication]

Actually, Hat_Truck says he's leaning more to the spiritual side, which is quite obvious if you read many of the posts he has written in religious discussions.


Me, however, science all the way. Also, we have more than five senses.

[Apostate]

My experiences:

While I would call myself an atheist, I have had spiritual experiences which puzzle me and which at this point I cannot explain. More specifically, I am prone to very vivid and almost prophetic dreams. These dreams differ distinctly from my normal dreams.

A few very glaring cases:
I dreamed that my girlfriend was perched on my neck, sucking the blood from my neck while I grew weaker and weaker. Upon waking I felt vividly that the dream meant something. Later that day she called me and asked if I could only apply to colleges that were local so we could stay together. I broke up with her that same day.
-You could argue that the dream reflected my inner worries about the inbalance in the relationship and that what happened was coincidence, but I can't explain how vivid the feeling was upon waking that the dream had somehow portrayed a powerful truth.

A second instance: I had a dream that a friend(she used to be one of my teachers while I was in high school) was climbing a cliff, slowly crawling up the steep ledges with her shoulders bulging. A dark skinned baby was strapped to her back, screaming and crying. When I woke up I had the sense that I needed to tell her about the dream. I called her and told her what had happened, and she started crying and said a quick goodbye and hung up. I heard later that she had broken up with her boyfriend that day, who was a black man and who I had known nothing about.

I've had a few dreams where I dreamed that I would meet someone in a specific place and then the following day I met them there. I dreamed the face of a woman and I met her the next day and ultimately dated her for two years.

I have also had many vivid dreams during which I live another life as a native in a tropical region, possibly South America. I don't know what to make of it but the dreams have fantastical detail and some of the things that have happened in the dreams I have researched and found out were actual native traditions. I've speculated that this is a past life or something, but it could be anything really. Maybe someone else's memories are floating as energy in some dreamscape or some other fantastical speculation.


So that's my take. I don't know what it means or if it means anything, but my suspicion is that there is more to life than meets the eye. I think it's possible that science could explain everything if we had the right tools and knowledge; I don't think anything is "magic". But I do think there is still a lot we don't know.

I also think that spirituality is an important part of being a rounded human. If you lose touch with (for lack of a better word) your inner God, then you are less of a person. I have lived some periods of my life where I felt out of touch with my true purpose, and other times where I was doing what I feel like I was made to do and I felt vibrant and alive. I can't explain it really but it's how I feel.