Thread: Balance & Design Dump

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  1. #23941
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chime View Post
    If his damage was decreased proportionally to how much attack speed he gains, what exactly would the point in leveling this ability even be?
    To get more benefits out of proc items? Just like technically, legionnaire's W doesn't change ennemies' damage output?

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  2. #23942
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alelor View Post
    To get more benefits out of proc items? Just like technically, legionnaire's W doesn't change ennemies' damage output?
    If that's the case, I wouldn't mind if redgun was reworked to be more like Windranger's R. Maybe give it limited uptime, or only lightning fast attacks against a specific target rather than a charge based system.

  3. #23943
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chime View Post
    If his damage was decreased proportionally to how much attack speed he gains, what exactly would the point in leveling this ability even be? Your suggestion is basically boiling down to "Witch Slayer shouldn't deal more damage as he levels his abilities".
    As I wrote, to increase the damage penalty (as it was in the old patches). 0/20/40/60%. I'm done discuss.
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  4. #23944
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    Quote Originally Posted by KrisaTX View Post
    As I wrote, to increase the damage penalty (as it was in the old patches). 0/20/40/60%. I'm done discuss.
    It has never ever been like that.

    It was 20% since patch 3.7.0. (like 2 years ago ?)

    From 2.5.22 to 3.7.0 it was 20/30/40/50%
    Last edited by Tarta; 03-23-2017 at 11:32 AM.

  5. #23945
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alelor View Post
    To get more benefits out of proc items? Just like technically, legionnaire's W doesn't change ennemies' damage output?
    But Legionnaire's W does increase the damage he does every level. I dont think there is anything comparable to Krista's suggestion.

    It's just so arbitrary to decrease the damage of MoA just to compensate for something else. It's like giving Legionnaire a permanent damage penalty on his auto-attacks just because he levels up Whirling Blades, because if Whirling Blades increases the damage of each spin, therefore he must deal less damage from other sources. It goes against the entire philosophy of skills becoming stronger with levels up to a certain point, because that MoA suggestion would make his E do absolutely nothing in an actual game. Why even bother with hero levels at that point?

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  6. #23946
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chime View Post
    But Legionnaire's W does increase the damage he does every level. I dont think there is anything comparable to Krista's suggestion.
    I'm not talking about krista's suggestion (mostly because I cba trying to make sense of his sentences, no flaming), but simply arguing the idea of exchanging damage for attackspeed.

    Legio's W value isn't as much in the frontloaded damage -tho it helps- but in the fact it means more spins -> more damage and more value out of his buckler. Just like having moa getting +100% attackspeed for -50% damage would actually improve his dps if he gets proc items.

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  7. #23947
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    I agree on that, but without proc items it becomes a rather boring skill if it doesn't actively grant you anything in return. I could see this being an alright change to do if he had some kind of proc integrated into his kit, which he doesn't have though.

    This was most likely the same reason why they decided to remove the double-hit from Tremble and Gemini. It didn't actually do anything without items.

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  8. #23948
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chime View Post
    This was most likely the same reason why they decided to remove the double-hit from Tremble and Gemini. It didn't actually do anything without items.
    No. They removed it because it was plain broken.
    Any double-hit without cooldown on any melee hero is broken with Brutalizer.
    That's why MoA can exist : he is range.
    That much attack speed isn't that broken since you don't have 25% stun chance.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chime View Post
    I agree on that, but without proc items it becomes a rather boring skill if it doesn't actively grant you anything in return. I could see this being an alright change to do if he had some kind of proc integrated into his kit, which he doesn't have though.
    It can be differently interesting.
    In D&D, Pathfinder and other similar D20 games,
    you often have feats for warrior that allow them to deal more damage at the expense of aim,
    or more aim at the expense of damage. Usually in a +2/-1 trade-off ratio.

    You can take that idea and make the blue/red gun for MoA deals :
    Blue +0%/25%/50%/75%/100% damage and -0%/-5%/-10%/-15%/-20% attack speed.
    Red +0%/50%/100%/150%/200% attack speed and -0%/-5%/-10%/-15%/-20% damage.

    Or any kind of similar trade-off. (numbers subject to balance)

    But again, that ain't very different from what's already there.
    You can also make the trade-off on armor/HP/mana and such, but your drifting away from the main design.
    Last edited by Tarta; 03-23-2017 at 03:24 PM.

  9. #23949
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    Yes, you can make a trade-off, but not a trade-off scaling with levels. There have been such abilities in HoN before, but they have all been removed by now. I doubt FB would ever consider a scaling trade-off again.

    The trade-off for MoA currently is the 20% damage reduction. If you want to push a nerf on this number, push for a higher static damage reduction. And I didn't know that that was the reason for removing double-hit. Now I do.

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  10. #23950
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tarta View Post
    It can be differently interesting.
    In D&D, Pathfinder and other similar D20 games,
    you often have feats for warrior that allow them to deal more damage at the expense of aim,
    or more aim at the expense of damage. Usually in a +2/-1 trade-off ratio.
    Just to expand a tiny bit on that: D&D5 offers feats that do this (and more) for both any 2h weapon, and ranged weapons, for a +10 damage/-5 attack. And they're in the top 5 best feats, hands down.

    Unrelated, but if I've correctly understood Zlapped, the world finals will have 4 teams instead of 8, but the same prizepool. Assuming I am correct, why do you think that is?
    My hypothesis is that by increasing the size of each slice of cake without actually pouring more into baking it, Garena wants to create more incentive for players to compete, therefore boosting the comp scene.
    Watcha think?

    ps: on the matter of double-strikes: basher and TC, which was during its day of "lulz it's 1900g and totally broken".

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  11. #23951
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    I'd rather push for a range reduction if anything. The fact that he can stay 550 range or whatever he is and have 400 attack speed is pretty absurd. Blue gun extends range so thematically it would make sense if range gun cut his range. Makes it more risk reward using your shield and makes it so that he doesn't have an easy time maintaining the shield for the full 8 second duration (and infinite cheetah ammo)

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  12. #23952
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    Well technically it still cuts his range by having a higher range on his blue gun, but I can agree that a range reduction would be a good way to tone him down a bit.

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  13. #23953
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gorb View Post
    Am I bad for liking new Riptide?
    No.

    Riptide isn't an unfun hero, she's just unviable.

  14. #23954
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    Just a fun thought - What if Soul Stealer was changed to a melee hero? (Keep his skillset and other attributes) lol


  15. #23955
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katieeee View Post
    Just a fun thought - What if Soul Stealer was changed to a melee hero? (Keep his skillset and other attributes) lol
    Give him a stacking slow instead of -armor aura on the E passive and could actually work.

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