Balance Dump

[Alten]

The problem seems to be that the items built out of the components of icon (namely helm and mana ring) provide better mana, better health and better regen than sacstone does.

Actually, maths!

Icon is 3300 for 450 hp, 400 mp, 1hp/s and 10% mana regen.

Helm and ring are 410 more gold for:

• 43 less hp, more than made up for from the 0.43 of armour gained through agi and the block effect from helm
• 22 less mana, effectively negligible
• 5 more hp/s before charges
• 2.88 flat mana regen, assuming mana ring use on cooldown (and ignoring the team benefit). To get this from 10% mana regen, you need 28.8 mp/s.

On that last point, some really shoddy rough tests indicate that this needs a sheepstick and a hellflower to get at the point where you might consider icon, at which point who cares if you get icon. To compare with the hp/s, if you have 5 kills to match the hp/s from helm, you have 60% mana regen, so you need at least a nomes or a stormspirit, or hey, you could buy a mana ring and not bother. Point being, the point at which the % mana regen is useful requires you to have heavy mana regen already.

The other advantage of not-icon is the independence of dying. 'But cbob!', I hear you cry, 'I'm good enough to not die!' Sure, but helm means I'm way less likely to die than your icon will make you, and if you are that pro, good on you! If you aren't, your item is reset to definitely not as good as helm/ring each time you do.

Basically, mana ring is way too good still, and helm does its job as best mid-game survivability item, obviously therefore overshadowing that aspect of icon.

E:
On sacstone:
Thankfully grave locket no longer provides blessed orb level stats for 735 gold when charged. Now sacstone provides comparable stats to a blessed orb when charged for a 200g discount, also the armour and the clickable. Also, each time you die you earn 100g plus the 12s faster respawn, so that 1938 number goes down assuming you die any number of times without managing to buy up anything. It may not be immediately powerful, but if you can consistently get in on a gank, it is certainly strong on any hero that wants to push and/or needs to put themselves in danger.

Well, slot efficiency is an important point of comparison. Not many charges are necessary to get an icon "roughly" on par with what is provided from a helm and a ring, and so the efficiency it provides statwise reflects positively on the fact that it occupies just a single slot.

[Antimodus]

The progression of Hotbl + RoS -> Sacristone + Icon does make sense conceptually, because the armor from new sacristone is better than HotBL damage deflection late game, and the scaling regen from Icon outperforms the RoS active late game.

The cost for this upgrade is
SotF 803
Locket recipe 300
Sacristone recipe 400
Glowstone 1200

Sell buckler -125
Sell lifetube -437 (Lifetube doesn't go any useful late game items that I can think of - if your hero already got HotBL + RoS, it's kinda late for Null Stone, and you probably don't want Restoration stone or Runed Axe)

Net cost 2105

HP regen drops a bit until icon picks up charges.
you get +2 all stats, +5 armor, additional +3 all stats/-15 sec/-100 gold penalty/lingering XP gain with Sacristone charge, you get 200HP/150MP from Glowstone, and finally the +3 armor active.

Is the difference worth delaying your first big item by 2105 gold, currently? Probably not. It's hardly a terrible choice, tho.

[[Mana]Farosarg]

Just to be cheeky I could point out that you are probably making the Icon on a hero that would build Barrier as well which you can use Lifetube for.

[[f13]`11411181]

3 armour is better than 150 deflection at a minimum lategame now?

[[IaF]Skyve]

3 armour is better than 150 deflection at a minimum lategame now?

Pretty sure it's 8 armour we're talking about with sacstone.

[changlingbob]

Well, slot efficiency is an important point of comparison. Not many charges are necessary to get an icon "roughly" on par with what is provided from a helm and a ring, and so the efficiency it provides statwise reflects positively on the fact that it occupies just a single slot.

I respect the slot efficiency argument, but ultimately don't believe it is as important on midgame items, which helm and icon definitely appear to be (due to the falloff helm has and due to requiring icon to build charges to be useful, which means you need it early to get it efficient enough to be worth the slots). Ring is arguably not a midgame item, being an early-, mid- and late-game item, needing replacing only when you need the room for your fourth big item.

[[LsE]Hsssh]

Not sure why you'd want to replace two mid game items with another two mid game items and pay 2k gold in the process.

[[GM]Cyber_Kun]

I'm going live as Camera man, with Anakha and PzwK as casters. High level lockpick casted games, goooooo!!!

This can be found, hereeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

I will have VODs of it after on Youtube.

[[GM]Cyber_Kun]

High level games casted by Anakha and PzKw. I was camera man.

- bTtw vs ADON - http://youtu.be/M7aX5ZtTd4A
- swindlemelonzz + co. vs [tan] - http://youtu.be/QudL-9eXXhs
- LP inhouse: sender vs zfreek - http://youtu.be/gK_iH2-bAuM

Some language but besides that it is greatttttttttttttt! Fun fact, as the games went on they got more drunk and I got more tired! See how everyone starts to mess up as the games go on.

[LordTroll]

Good stuff, I really liked it. PzwK is no Anakha though. :3

[[TCND]Scrubs]

dat lisp....

[[GM]Haruhi_sos]

Anyone know why Tremble is constantly in the last few most played heroes and with such a low win rate? I just went 15-1 at 672xp/m and don't know how people lose with him; it's practically autowin mid and steamroll with shudder

[[SBT]Tedde]

220 apm to fail?!

Wtf??!

[[f13]`11411181]

CatLoMein played disgustingly bad both games we casted that had him in it. Me-level bad. 223 actions to fail per minute is an apt comment.

[man_guy]

I was disappointed at the lack of yelling during the cast. Cyber somewhat provided by having his voice much higher than the other two.

[[GM]Cyber_Kun]

Sorry to say that it will be fixed next cast. I had my microphone on +20Db due to something else I was doing before.

[[LsE]Hsssh]

Anyone know why Tremble is constantly in the last few most played heroes and with such a low win rate? I just went 15-1 at 672xp/m and don't know how people lose with him; it's practically autowin mid and steamroll with shudder

Requires some micro, is dead weight if you manage to lose solo. These traits are not favored by pubs.

[[f13]`11411181]

I was disappointed at the lack of yelling during the cast. Cyber somewhat provided by having his voice much higher than the other two.

I will do my best to try and provide.

[[Mana]Farosarg]

Sorry to say that it will be fixed next cast. I had my microphone on +20Db due to something else I was doing before.

Good thing you left the exact reason up to our imagination.

[[RCT]Reldnahc]

Good thing you left the exact reason up to our imagination.

Elderly phone sex.

Are the casts going to have special guests?