Balance Dump

[[AZ]LoLPlaya_]

I do believe he is balanced in a very awkward way. He is probably the best 1v1-er, but he is pretty useless when it comes to 5v5 situations. Even if you are 3-0 with him in 10 minutes, chances are high you won't be able to carry your team to victory, even with the awesome farm you got.

[[IaF]Skyve]

Schizophrenic, awkward design. Unsure about balance.

I still find that the hero should be either focusing more on either his Q and R 'combos or his W and E combos to achieve something worthwhile in either case. Basically I'd like him to be split into two different heroes.

[[eR]Ekamo]

Taken from TB thread:

I feel there are some common misconceptions that constantly leads to the same, straight-forward suggestions about how to "fix" Thunderbringer, and this applies to any other hero as well. You know who you are people, and I please ask you, refrain from those suggestions since if they are not deleted they will most likely be ignored by every single person reading it.

The most common, but nevertheless faulty misconception, is that TB needs a higher range in order to become balanced. I do not think anyone would argue that if you put enough numbers into this category, he will sooner or later reach a status where he is considered "balanced". Then why has this not been done?
When trying to balance a hero, one must take into consideration many factors. Every single stat about a hero matters, and there are numerous ways to tweak those. There are countless ways to make a hero reach the status of "balanced" where one of the most obvious ones would be to simply incrementally increase the damage done on a certain skill (let's say, Thunderbringer's Lightning Bolt) until the hero is considered "balanced".

This way of balancing ignores a very important aspect though.
Is the simplest and most straight-forward way the optimal way to achieve balance?

I am not saying that such is never the case. I am simply trying to emphasize the fact that it is more often not than the other way around.

Why you might ask. Why not just take the most obvious route to balance, and be done with it?
The fallacy in that logic is that it completely ignores the fact that balance and design are two very intertwined concepts. The design on a skill is not limited to the way the skill works, it is also directly tied to the numbers on the skill, and thus balance. One might say that, for example, the high range on Pharaoh's ultimate is simply a balance aspect of the hero, but I would argue that it is even more so a choice based off a very specific goal in design to add a certain flavor of the hero, with the numbers of it later balanced around that conscious design-decision.

Here is when Thunderbringer comes into the picture. It should be made very clear that his low attack range is a conscious design-decision, and not simply a remnant from the older Dota engine. When Thunderbringer was created, it was with very specific design goals in mind, which even though I have no inside information on, can make decently intelligent guesses about:
He was designed to be a high damage hero-nuker, who from a pretty long range could completely obliterate specific heroes or wreck teamfights. He was supposed to be a strong laner with his strong last-hitting ability, but was given extremely low range and low movement speed to make up for that. In lane, he thus has some pretty major counters (high-hp heroes with strong solo-killing capabilities), because he is so reliant on a static amount of damage which does not effect them as much as well as being very easy to kill when being just slightly out of position. He is also limited by the fact that he can rarely completely seize a lane unless he gains an early advantage, due to his innate tendency to push the lane up to the enemy's tower (which conversely can benefit him as well if one capitalizes this to gain a strong rune-control). His low movement speed, natural squishyness and lack of true disables throughout the entire game is indeed intended, to work as a buffer to allow the possibility of giving the hero a ridiculous skill-set, namely his ultimate. The hero is given glaring weaknesses to make up for his extreme strengths, which in Thunderbringer's case is to be able to from a long range deal high amounts of burst damage on a pretty consistent basis. This in due turn creates something very unique about him, something that further increases strategic versatility and diversity in the game.

Given this somewhat simplified analysis, I pose this question to all of you:
When trying to balance a hero, such as Thunderbringer, should we go with the simple solution of buffing the heroes weaknesses, and in the process taking away a very unique aspect of the hero (and thus the game as a whole), or should we try to find an alternative solution that makes the hero retain its unique flavor while nearing this status which we commonly refer to as "balanced".

Considering this, I find it very evident that our goal in this forum is to discuss our ways to these optimal solutions, by critically probing the hero's strengths and weaknesses, and by somewhat reaching a consensus on different approaches to how the hero can get closer to a balanced state. On the opposite side of the spectrum, I assert as well that our goal is not to mindlessly spit out suggestions (such as in this case, increase Thunderbringer's attack range), which might slightly improve the game's balance, but that in the long run might have unforeseen consequences and maybe even be detrimental by decreasing the diversity in design in the game.

Good design is often imperative in order for a hero, and subsequently the game, to be appreciated, both from a player and spectator perspective. When balancing a game, one shouldn't be satisfied with a solution that works; one should instead strive to find an optimal solution (implying there is such a thing) that will satisfy casual and competitive players and spectators alike. I do recognize the fact that some concessions can/should be made one way or the other when a situation truly calls for it, such as nerfing/buffing the pub-dominance or competitive dominance of certain heroes or vice verse for the general betterment of the game, but this should by no means be the norm.

It is our job to take this into account in our discussions, and not solely focus on the easiest, most conspicuous way to balance a hero. It is our job to maintain a high standard in our discussions, and this can only be achieved by a joint effort to try to avoid outright suggestions like the plague. Because if you cannot prove that your idea is the optimal way to balance said hero, why should we others bother to even consider it? It is not our job to find your line of thought when only given the end-result; on the contrary it is your job to explain it to leave room for as little ambiguity as possible.

The goal of this sub-forum is to have intelligent discussion on the interaction of heroes, items and game-play related issues, and to ultimately probe and provide insight on overall balance.

With this in mind, please continue, and stay focused on what this forum actually is meant to do, to provide intelligent input on this game's balance.

[[RCT]Reldnahc]

That's right, listen to Ekamo. Give TB 600 range.

[[f13]`11411181]

Ekamo smashing out some truth.

[changlingbob]

Can we start infracting people who do nothing but post a shitty suggestion yet?

[[GR]XFlame]

Well damn, that post is truth.

Can we start infracting people who do nothing but post a shitty suggestion yet?

Doesn't this fall under the 'make constructive posts' rule?

[[IaF]Skyve]

Well, then whip dem balance mods into shape :P

Also last thing I read on the topic was that Vahn said to infract people that keep making baseless suggestions.

[Hubaris]

I suggest that infractions get nerfed down to one per person.

It would address all of the issues.

[[eR]Ekamo]

Infraction Hammer: Activated

[[GR]XFlame]

That sounds like a move of a new hero.

OT: I have finally played a game with Blitz, and I can't understand why, for the love of all that is holy, his ult is so retardedly bad at level 1 and 2. 150/120 second cd on a 225/450 nuke with a tiny AoE? Seriously, what the hell?

[Hubaris]

Because S2 makes OP heroes with Ultimates worse than Hammer Stuns in most instances. His cast time on his E is atrocious too, making it almost unusable in a clutch situation.

But yea, his Ultimate is on par with Tempest... Oh wait.

[skeloperch]

I think everyone has realized that his ultimate has a way longer cooldown than would ever be necessary. Considering how little it does for how high it's cooldown is, I'd expect it to replace every item in their inventory with bound eyes or something.

[[f13]`11411181]

Blitz is being addressed.

As for being on par with Tempest ultimate, what exactly in the game is on par with Tempest's ultimate? It's one in a list of skills that would instantly "break" any hero it's put on (see: Madman's Stalk)

[PzKw]

I disagree. Tempest's ultimate is utterly overrated in my opinion. If you put Eidelons on any hero though...

[Hubaris]

Blitz is being addressed.

As for being on par with Tempest ultimate, what exactly in the game is on par with Tempest's ultimate? It's one in a list of skills that would instantly "break" any hero it's put on (see: Madman's Stalk)

Its not, but the fact that the CD at level one is almost identical was the point of the comment. Its hard to create sarcasm with English not being my first language, apologies.

[SirVH]

Ekamo, we do need a Bramble speculation thread!

[[TECH]Gorb]

Because S2 makes OP heroes with Ultimates worse than Hammer Stuns in most instances. His cast time on his E is atrocious too, making it almost unusable in a clutch situation.

But yea, his Ultimate is on par with Tempest... Oh wait.

I do not understand how a hero with a lacklustre/poorly-performing ultimate could be considered "OP" without the first three skills rendering the ultimate useless.

I am not even getting on the "OP heroes" part precisely, nor the "ultimates worse than Hammer('s) stun([s]s)", merely the combination of the two.[/s]

EDIT: apparently I completely misunderstood the sarcasm.

Also holy hell:

public boolean respectInc(String name) {

Character forumite = findName(name);
forumite.setRespect(forumite.getRespect() + 10);

}

Applying for Ekamo, for that TB post. Big plays.

[Hubaris]

I think I should stay away from sarcasm in the near future, it apparently causes much problems online.

[[TECH]Gorb]

Nah, I read it horribly wrong. I usually pick up on it, British humour, etc.