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  1. #2721
    I liked Macrohards formula to change the spin mechanics ALOT better... Pity S2 refuses to use good forum suggestions, instead they insist on making their ''own'' changes.
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  2. #2722
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    Eh, didn't know that, thank you.

    Then I guess it's pretty obvious that you should level your Q and E first, because W becomes really effective only with the ultimate.

    Thinking about it, this kinda sucks. i mean you get a good farming tool only at level 16.

    Also, you need to get your ultimate at 6, because that allows you to cast Q while in invis.
    Or you max Defile and Mortification, skipping your Invis and thus skipping your Ultimate; allowing you to pack out a significant amount of damage now that you freed up 2 skill points.
    Last edited by Hubaris; 04-05-2012 at 02:39 PM. Reason: Damn Reply With Quote no work >.>
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  3. #2723
    Quote Originally Posted by Gorb View Post
    Why is a nerf to ganks, but an (average) buff to farming (thought technically for wiping anything short of an ancient camp you're not going to be taking much less than say, 32 hits), not thought through properly?

    I'm not disagreeing, it's just interesting to see a complete lack of reasoning in your post. You state things, and then infer negative things about other people while doing so. No argumentation to back up said statements, however.
    Farming its a buff because the charges won't go away. Sure, farming ancients you might take n hits, but if you have spare charges, you then go to the next camp. You probably won't have spare charges, as the most typical way of finishing clearing a creep camp is a spin killing all the remaining creeps.

    So lets examine why this is poorly thought out: legionnaire as a hero is a ganker and initiator who needs some farm, and he gets that farm from the jungle. Over a large number of attacks (from the creep camps) his proc rate is now increased, increasing his jungling speed, letting him take harder camps earlier, etc. This lets him the farm he needs (helm, portal key, boots) earlier in the game and come online easier. This may be desirable, or may not be, depending on how quickly you think blink-initators should come online in general; I think later is better, with ganks to speed it up, rather than ricing in the jungle.

    Then he comes to use this farm in ganks. Over the course of a gank, he will take a low number of attacks from blink in (or application of a friendly stun and wander up), taunt hitting some number of things, auto attacks and ulti. This number of attacks will not be large due to the duration of taunt, and the preference of the target to leave and avoid the ulti. The proc rate over a low number of attacks is decreased. This reduces the damage output, unless you manage to taunt an entire creep wave (requiring the earlier farm), and decreases the chance of a successful gank.

    On balance then, it encourages legionnaire to stay in the jungle for longer, farming up more items to increase the chance of a successful gank. The longer he's in the jungle for, the better farm the targets can get, and the harder it is to gank them. We also got a nerf to legionnaire's ganking power, requiring him to farm up even more!

    Consider also the magnitude of the changes. Over a large number of incoming attacks (farming), there is about a 1 percentage point increase in procs, about a 5% increase. Over six number of attacks, there's a 4 percentage point drop, about a 20% decrease. Over 16 attacks, which requires a taunt of a good proportion of the creep wave, there's about a 1.5 percentage point drop, about 8% lower.

    The reason its not thought through is because it doesn't do anything. It makes lego better at farming. But he doesn't care, he wants to gank once he's got his core items, but now he's worse at that. I can't really say lego needs nerfing, but here's a nerf to his ganking, which is his core thing. While the histogram that macrohard whipped up when he suggested something like this looks nicer, looking nice is not a requisite for good maths. Not being able to chain back to back spins is a change with no apparent goal; it might smooth out the distribution, but you can do that without just outright disallowing it. I doubt back to back spins really damage anyone, except those who can't stand that, sometimes, the RNG doens't go your way.

    Back to back spins, early lego ganks, not ricing the jungle all make for more exciting games. This change just made games with lego less interesting, and at the same time make him less likely to be picked.
    In balance, the burden of proof is on you to show your suggestion a) does what you say it will do, b) won't disrupt balance elsewhere, and c) isn't retarded beyond belief. Until you show these three things, the last may be assumed.

  4. #2724
    What's up with behe fissure blocking pathing for 2-3 seconds after it's gone. Noticed it a few times now. (on top of it ****ing up pathing already)

  5. #2725
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    China is forever banned T_T;

  6. #2726
    Join the club.

  7. #2727
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    @changlingbob: that reasoning is fair enough - would you not consider Legionnaire too good at ganking previously? Possibly not in the competitive scene - I have no idea how picking goes at that kind of level - but maybe the intended effect was to nerf his early-game ganking potential? Given that he can walk into creep waves from the start of the gank and tank them relatively effectively (in addition to discouraging harass by spinraping low level heroes)?

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  8. #2728
    Machiavelli` is forever banned too.

  9. #2729
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    Quote Originally Posted by iloveyou View Post
    China is forever banned T_T;
    It's okay, we still love you <3

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  10. #2730
    Quote Originally Posted by Gorb View Post
    @changlingbob: that reasoning is fair enough - would you not consider Legionnaire too good at ganking previously? Possibly not in the competitive scene - I have no idea how picking goes at that kind of level - but maybe the intended effect was to nerf his early-game ganking potential? Given that he can walk into creep waves from the start of the gank and tank them relatively effectively (in addition to discouraging harass by spinraping low level heroes)?
    In short, no. He may have been able to gank slightly earlier than typical gankers (pebbles, fayde, pwp and so on, or even the less nil-to-kill gankers such as thunderbringer or bubbles), but his ganks are vastly improved by having his ultimate available. If the legionaire has enough levels for his ultimate, a solo mid ganker certainly does, and a solo mid ganker typically has more support on his ganks on side lanes than legionaire due to his being in the jungle and ganking into (normally) a solo side lane. While he can tank creep waves early on, if he's pulling agro from the creeps he's going a long way around to get to the gank, whereas other gankers roll up and kill people. I'm sure the goal of the change was to reduce his early game spinrape as you put it, but, depending on how early in the game it is, it leaves you vulnerable to ganks in the jungle from the opposing mid after a gank happens.
    In balance, the burden of proof is on you to show your suggestion a) does what you say it will do, b) won't disrupt balance elsewhere, and c) isn't retarded beyond belief. Until you show these three things, the last may be assumed.

  11. #2731
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  12. #2732
    Holy **** Artillery looks awesome.

    My predictions on his skills:
    - Long range AoE bombardment
    - Slow, possibly single target
    - Immobilizes self, gaining armor/health/range (pick some)
    - global AoE, possibly adds a DoT to area, similar to Bombardiers ult

  13. #2733
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    Quote Originally Posted by XFlame View Post
    Holy **** Artillery looks awesome.

    My predictions on his skills:
    - Long range AoE bombardment
    - Slow, possibly single target
    - Immobilizes self, gaining armor/health/range (pick some)
    - global AoE, possibly adds a DoT to area, similar to Bombardiers ult
    My guess: Chipper Rockets that go through multiple targets.

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  14. #2734
    Quote Originally Posted by ElementUser View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by MacroHard View Post
    Mathematics and theory aside, anyone who has played Legionnaire since the change (and since the hotfix) will confirm that the spinning is much more reliable, making it a buff to jungling. You will also find that it is indeed a potential nerf for certain situations if you PK onto only a few enemies and taunt, since they will only attack you a limited number of times.

    This change rewards efficient jungling. This change rewards stacking creeps. This change rewards blinking into 4 or more enemies.
    This change discourages getting "lucky" and spinning multiple times in few attacks. This change discourages getting "unlucky" and spinning very little.

    The simultaneous possible-buff-yet-possible-nerf situation is a compromise in order to have a more reliable and consistent feel. You will no longer able to instantly wipe out enemy heroes by spinning 6 times in 3 seconds. Similarly, you will no longer have those frustrating moments where you seem to never spin at all. Isn't this what balance is really about?
    So we're nerfing the thing he's ok at, and buffing the thing he's entirely competent at.

    Also no, balance is not about frustration or streaks of good luck; balance is about balance. RNG is another thing that should be taken into account, and not something to be stifled in case you get lucky/unlucky. Luck and unluck make for interesting games, and while being on the raw end of either feels bad, being on the right end feels good, and, over time, everything averages out anyway.

    What balance is about, with respect to RNG, is making sure that the chance of extreme results is low, not that every result is mediocre.
    In balance, the burden of proof is on you to show your suggestion a) does what you say it will do, b) won't disrupt balance elsewhere, and c) isn't retarded beyond belief. Until you show these three things, the last may be assumed.

  15. #2735
    Is there a way to get rid of the majority of the playerbase and replace them with DF players?

  16. #2736
    The basic gist is that the Lego change was both good and bad from a design standpoint. Whether it's more consistant or not, it should not reward Lego more for being in the jungle, which is what it does. Whether you think it's more or less fair for him to be better/worse in X/Y situation, crafting a change that rewards more passive play on him is the wrong direction, and I do disagree with it.

  17. #2737
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    Quote Originally Posted by PzKw View Post
    The basic gist is that the Lego change was both good and bad from a design standpoint. Whether it's more consistant or not, it should not reward Lego more for being in the jungle, which is what it does. Whether you think it's more or less fair for him to be better/worse in X/Y situation, crafting a change that rewards more passive play on him is the wrong direction, and I do disagree with it.
    The interesting part about that is that S2 usually wants to make the game more gank and less farm oriented, so it really is a somewhat questionable change.

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  18. #2738
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    Quote Originally Posted by changlingbob View Post
    So we're nerfing the thing he's ok at, and buffing the thing he's entirely competent at.

    Also no, balance is not about frustration or streaks of good luck; balance is about balance. RNG is another thing that should be taken into account, and not something to be stifled in case you get lucky/unlucky. Luck and unluck make for interesting games, and while being on the raw end of either feels bad, being on the right end feels good, and, over time, everything averages out anyway.

    What balance is about, with respect to RNG, is making sure that the chance of extreme results is low, not that every result is mediocre.


    You should gank with Legionnaire many times and see how many times he spins compared to before on average =).

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  19. #2739
    Quote Originally Posted by ElementUser View Post
    You should gank with Legionnaire many times and see how many times he spins compared to before on average =).
    Over many gank attempts, you'll get as many (or more) spins. Many attempts doesn't get you many kills, as you're left vulnerable the times your procs are crap, which is most attempts with low numbers of inbound attacks, ie, most of them.
    In balance, the burden of proof is on you to show your suggestion a) does what you say it will do, b) won't disrupt balance elsewhere, and c) isn't retarded beyond belief. Until you show these three things, the last may be assumed.

  20. #2740
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    I am mostly annoyed because the hero didn't need a buff to either graph-estetics or actual performance. If the current top tier (****ing OP) jungling heroes gets nerfed he'll be borderline OP. Not a good thing, at all.

    But whatever, I like playing Legionnaire!

    Edited because I misunderstood the change at first, I now learned that it nowadays can't even proc on two attacks in a row and that it's impossible to proc on the first hit when it's off cooldown. I thought it was 8% at start and built up from there instead of 0 at start, which would make some difference. My bad! Downvote the change to oblivion.
    Last edited by GregerMoek; 04-09-2012 at 02:23 AM.
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