Balance Dump

[GregerMoek]

Yeah, disables stops action, that's their whole point. Same with all kinds of mana-burn. Puzzlebox.

[Zilrax]

He is annoying yes. But he's not overhwhelming either. I don;t see why we're making a niche hero that has a very useful niche... not so.

[[IaF]Skyve]

Well, his ability to stop action was particularly high, while stuns usually lead into action, rather than stop it.

The reason they are reworking him (most likely) is because his skills don't necessarily agree too well with each other. I always found that he could be more effective if his int steal and 2nd skill were put onto a different hero and the rest reworked into a "proper" support hero.

[GregerMoek]

Causing someone's initiation or combination to fail usually leads to counter-action from my experience.

Burning someone's mana means they can't cast spells which means Vindicator will deal heavy damage to heroes, I don't see that as action-prevention. It's as action filled as watching a jungler jungle.

[Zilrax]

Well, besides the part where you yell at Vindicator to stop farming and do something. Actually...

[pewpewstar]

True, I can't remember a game in my bracket where a Vindicator didn't go butterfinger

[Anakha]

He slows the flow of teamfights down rather dramatically, which I feel is simply another way of fighting. Soul Reaper is another hero who benefits from dragging a fight out as long as (in)humanly possible, because the compound effects of what Judgment does really add up to significant changes.

[Zilrax]

Yes but slow is bad. Our attention spans won't last long enough if they aren't jangling keys in front of us.

[GregerMoek]

This is worse than EA.

[TRYTROUSERS]

Soul reaper has to have farmed a decent amount of HP and mana to cause a big effect on the game; a vindi sitting behind his team with boots and a power supply can completely take heros like panda, pebbles, mk, chip out of the game without actually doing anything. I think it's cool to have counters in the game, but vindi is probably too extreme in the sense that he either grants you a free win or is completely useless depending on what the enemy picked. He's also probably the worst pub hero to play, being locked into a really boring play style that involves sitting in fog and hitting Q to dominate the first 10 minutes while praying your team mans up for the next 35.

[Shadeward]

Soul reaper has to have farmed a decent amount of HP and mana to cause a big effect on the game; a vindi sitting behind his team with boots and a power supply can completely take heros like panda, pebbles, mk, chip out of the game without actually doing anything. I think it's cool to have counters in the game, but vindi is probably too extreme in the sense that he either grants you a free win or is completely useless depending on what the enemy picked. He's also probably the worst pub hero to play, being locked into a really boring play style that involves sitting in fog and hitting Q to dominate the first 10 minutes while praying your team mans up for the next 35.

Or you could farm up a Tablet and Hex and destroy everything.

[Ctrl_Alt_Del]

Except when you get Hex and Linken's resulting in an almost infinite mana pool.

EDIT: Midgame you should be able to get off 2 - 3 even depending on your items and farming is no issue for Tinker.

You gotta wonder, how would s2 implement tinker into the game in the first place. How could you possibly recreate heatseaker missiles into something elsw

[[GR]XFlame]

Meh. If S2 pulls through with this, I'll start using the term 'S2-hero' from that point on. I never particularly liked the term, but the change to Vindicator is simply retarded.

[GregerMoek]

Anyone knows if this was something they come up with themselves or if there are many players behind this in among the SBT's?

I have a feeling they are all a bunch of crybabies who played Panda/Chipper/MK/Torturer/Pyro/whatever and got outpicked and hates the fact that you can get outpicked.

If you don't ban Vindicator if he could be a possible counter to your line-up then you shouldn't whine.

[[IaF]Skyve]

I think it's more that S2 dislikes situational picks or smth. I'd rather have more situational picks and less universally useful ones, but who am I?

[changlingbob]

Anyone knows if this was something they come up with themselves or if there are many players behind this in among the SBT's?

I have a feeling they are all a bunch of crybabies who played Panda/Chipper/MK/Torturer/Pyro/whatever and got outpicked and hates the fact that you can get outpicked.

If you don't ban Vindicator if he could be a possible counter to your line-up then you shouldn't whine.

This.

[Shadeward]

I think it's more that S2 dislikes situational picks or smth. I'd rather have more situational picks and less universally useful ones, but who am I?

Considering Nigma's ungodly post, I think it's probably more related to the fact that since people have a hard time using Vindicator (no escape mech and stun) AND he can't run around killing people with Chalice and Bottle/Mop the floor with opposing team with HotBL and Sol's Bulward, he was considered obsolete/waste of space.

Anyone who's played (or played against) Vindicator/Silencer in organized games/scrims can tell you his value to the hero pool as he is. I have not a single clue what made them want to change him except the possible one I explained above.

[Antimodus]

They destroyed because he was the last thing to stand in the way of the s and the s and geminis and keeping them from rolling their face on the keyboard to win
HUEHUEHUE
S2'ed

[Launders]

Playing the devils advocate here, Vindicator's aura is an obscenely strong skill, and has an averse affect on more than just combo reliant heroes. I dont think you guys are getting the big picture here.

You get silenced for 3 seconds, simply because Vindicator is STANDING THERE. The only effort required to even make use of the skill would be to put points into it. You, and situationally your team, get 3 seconds of silence for casting a SINGLE spell. This means that you and your team have to be extremely picky and decide which spell(s) have priority and are useful in that given situation. His presence alone limits your ENTIRE team in a literal sense, unlike a Magmus where you have to assume he's hiding somewhere and waiting to blink in and crap all over your team. Vindicator is standing right there, and your options are already slashed in terms of what you can do depending on your team lineup.

To quote one of my favorite Incubus songs:
"On a burning bridge, your options are minimal at best.
Depending on where you're standing
and how much breath is in your chest.
If it came down to it
would you high-tail home and hide?
Or dance on fire and enjoy the ride?"

Sage's Lore is really good against the majority of the hero pool, and straight up destroys some heroes in lane (Sand Wraith).

Incantation allows for good harrass, as well as late game snowballing should the situation allow. Not to mention its TRUE damage and goes through magic immunity.

The ultimate rivals Malphas in terms of counterinitiation on top of the fact that its global.

Taking this all into account it would make sense that Vindicator is extremely squishy, however that is a weakness that can be offset by item pickups.

And by item pickups I dont mean:
Red Boots > Alch Bones > Hellflower

Now I may be a bit biased because I'm a fan of Chipper, but I think that Vindicator is strong, almost broken because as a counter-pick and as a single entity since he forces a gameplay change that is massive and potentially crippling to team lineups, something that could be avoided only by a ban in a BP situation.

[GregerMoek]

However, anti-cc items such as SHRUNKEN HEAD and NULL STONE, are very popular on heroes that doesn't wanna get stunned/silenced during a combo, MK and Panda WOULD GET THESE ITEMS ANYWAYS IN MOST SCENARIOS. Moreover, his aura can be "countered" with silence and hellflower too.

He farms badly and dies quickly without farm. His mobility is not that good either, he rewards good picking and positioning and punishes bads of both of those 2 aspects.
The fact that he isn't isnta-win against any of the combo-heroes makes him a pretty fair hero in my opinion.

Malphas can't be stopped.

You say that his weakness can be offset by item pickups, but so can his strengths by the other team. Sounds pretty fair and balanced to me IMHO, yes this can be said about basically any hero, however Vindi's Aura CAN NOT happen before you use a spell and it's basically you that activate it as his enemy.