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Plated Greaves. Always get Plated Greaves when you are against a hero like Deadwood.By the way, GL to oneshot solo Plague Rider with Steamboots, Ring of the Teacher and armor lvl 3+ with Deadwood Punch.
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Not really, sure plated is nice, but you need your HPs to be quite high for the expected HPs to be higher against physical with plated than steam...Originally Posted by Skyve
I finally got to play him for the first time since the patch yesterday. It was a win, but I wasn't extraordinarily useful like I usually am on PR. Granted, I wasn't able to take a solo side lane, but PR seems now like he's at least closer to the "sweet spot". He is a rare hero that's strong in all phases of the game but never gamebreaking, and too much fiddling with his skills may break that balance.
IMO he should stay as he is right now for at least another 6 months before any further changes are considered.
why your poll not have "balanced"? I'm voting borderline as it is the closest thing.
Ah, the Bad Boys movies. The gold standard for race relations.
I must admit I don't understand this topic at all. There is no conversation about balance at all. What is the definition of "balanced" ? Is it W/L 50% ?
Looking at armour and saying "ZOMG, it 'counters' some items" is meaningless. Bound eye counters wards and shrouds... oh no ..., The real conversation is about teams and team picks.
Arguing about whether an ultimate is too good, denying is too good, or if movespeed is too much.... all pointless. We can argue about wretched hag having rune control, imba slows or keeper's ents all day long.
If your opposing team builds their strategy around heavy armour reduction and dps, why shouldn't PR be a good pick because of the armour?
If the opposing team is full of pebbles, pyro's and other heavy nukers then how much use is the armour ?
The reason why PR is a good pick ?
I think it is because the hero has many synergies with other hero's - keeper ult + PR ult, PR slow + swiftblade spin, PR Ult + Termpest Ult. Need a babysitter ? PR can help control the lane. The list goes on. This is the real reason why PR wins games ... oh and ...
The REAL reason why I think PR is a good pick (as someone else said) is for the same reason why rhapsody/glacius is a useful pick at competitive levels. WARDS. This is a hero who can buy wards all game long and still stay useful with just a set of boots and STILL combo with all these other hero's - WIN !
I must admit, I rarely see a plague rider go 22/0/5 in a game. Unlike semi-carries like hag, PR just doesn't snowball in the same way. PR however wins games in a different way - by being synergistic and a team player.
Should we nerf a hero that promotes team play ? I dunno...
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Lich solo.The REAL reason why I think PR is a good pick (as someone else said) is for the same reason why rhapsody/glacius is a useful pick at competitive levels. WARDS. This is a hero who can buy wards all game long and still stay useful with just a set of boots and STILL combo with all these other hero's - WIN !Imbalance does not only lie in those heroes that can snowball or net a lot of kills. It is why Rhapsody was broken, or Hellbringer was/is broken. Etc.I must admit, I rarely see a plague rider go 22/0/5 in a game. Unlike semi-carries like hag, PR just doesn't snowball in the same way. PR however wins games in a different way - by being synergistic and a team player.If cluelessness was ever so perfectly embodied by someone, that person would honestly be you.Should we nerf a hero that promotes team play ? I dunno...
Sigh.... uhmmm thanks for the response I guess.
I think you completely misunderstood my point. All I read is conflicting views about movespeed being too much or too little, or armour needing a nerf or that the nerf was too much. What is the BASIS for these views other than personal opinion.
Is balance about 50% W/L ratio ? I for one know it isn't. I have been part of balance teams before, and I can tell you that talking about hero's abilities in isolation will not lead to balance.
According to the (admittedly limited and almost certainly biased - just look at the phrasing) poll above, most people think Lich is not broken - you appear to think so, although I can't really tell if you were just annoyed by my post or not.
In any case I await the definition because "Lich Solo" doesn't really explain anything. Lots of hero's can solo. I think Valk is WAY more broken... but that is just my opinion.
On a side note, it saddens me that you felt the need to insult me. You are welcome to do so privately but doing so in public adds no value - I expect more from a moderator.
I'd just like to say, although this game started off as an almost direct port of DotA, it has strayed slowly but surely, with that accelerating as of late. Currently, 43/91 heroes are S2 creations, whether mashups of original DotA heroes or completely original. I feel like claims such as 'Lich's deny is way better than PRs' holds absolutely no ground in these discussions, because while originally based off of Lich, obviously HoN is way faster paced and almost half of the hero pool does not exist in DotA.
They are VERY separate entities at this point.
As far as PR goes, I feel he's much like Valkyrie. Always a safe pick, always will be a safe pick. You could bring his +armor down to 6, his MS down to 300, and up the cooldown of his deny to 50 seconds and I feel he'd still be a safe pick.
Making fantasy reality.
A lot of ranged heroes (specifically supports), especially those with slows and disables do not get 300 base ms
When you're talking about basic game mechanics (creep waves every 30 seconds, XP granted by creeps), and the very first phase of the game in a solo vs. solo situation, DotA comparisons hold up. Lich's deny is nearly half of Plague's.
HoN is not way faster-paced than DotA in the first 3 minutes of the game, unless you find a way to rush Bulwark before you're out of base.
Also, Smoke would venture to say that DotA is faster-paced in the first 3 minutes of the game.
The point you're trying to make is valid, but that does not make DotA comparisons moot. It may make them less substantial in way of holding less water, with holes born from their differences, but the argumentation is still there, if only weaker. To say that they're invalid is to place a blindfold over your eyes.
It's like saying you can't compare NYC to any other grand-scale metropolis. They're monumentally different, but the fundamentals to running any city is still there.
lich may be op in a sence that people play ap and there's 0 strategies, there's plenty strong heroes, if we keep nerfing strong heroes then we'll end up playing LoL where everything's tanky up the ass and balance changes consist of nerfing what's most played in solo queue
with these armor changes lich is still the same as he was before, nothing's gonna change, this nerf's just an inconvenience and was unnecessary, i mean it took this game such a freakin' long time to realise how strong chen is, it's really just people being stuck in the trilane mindset and lich is strong here, it's the pr0s fault for being narrow minded with their strats
... They use strats that work. Nerfing OP heroes is fine (not saying PR is "OP" but I felt he needed a few nerfs here and there), Chen/Ophelia was severely buffed but has always been considered quite solid. Metagames decide which heroes are picked though and he isn't picked in pubs or lower level play because people are afraid of micro (not that she needs heaps). Also we have been out of trilanes and into push strats for a while now (S2 seemed to force this change with bulwark and some hero changes). Its not that Lich is strong in a trilane meta, its that he can fit in almost any lineup. 0 opportunity cost.
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So from what I'm gathering the problem is with his deny ability and his sustainability in lane.
What if his Extinguish was reworked somewhat... he can only deny deniable creeps. That way the lane doesn't entirely lose the EXP and the lane presence is reduced. Of course, the numbers from currentHP:Mana need to be adjusted but still.
It will allow him to not auto-win the lane with sheer level supremacy.
I hate to fall into suggestions, but the deny is his problem (if anything), not his movespeed or nuking power.
The sign of lost Carcosa appeared in the air, paralyzing us with dread older than the very idea of time.
As we looked on in horror, the unholy sign dissolved into a lone figure, shrouded in yellow.
So @ people who said "GL on 1 shot killing PR with DW when PR got X,Y,Z items" I would like to say: What kind of DW will let PR get steamboots/plated greaves, ring of the teacher and be a 6lvl+ so he have a higher lvl of his armor???
I mean we all know that nukers/gnakers like DW/hag/pebs/BH/fayde/etc. get most of their money and kills from enemy supports because they can easily kill them with 1 combo of 2-3 skills. And also those gankers should gank every time their CD is off cooldown and kill those supports(well yeah they also can kill the enemy carries too but that should but in most situations when mid gaker ganks side lane he takes down the support+the carry of the enemy team with the help of his mates). So add here that PR is babysitting carry and he should not get any creep kills and you will realize he will have barely money for wards... not to mention marchers.
Also you will answer that wards and what not fix your problems with ganking but not always. Again we are talking about different situations. That's why I think that every hero has his + and - . He can be powerful at doing something that the enemy can't but he also has his weaknesses. And I think PR needed only lowered movement speed reduce on his shield and his phys. armor bonus on his shield to 9 or 10 and max level.
Also his deny is not OP... It's fine and everyone should know how to fix their XP and money problems because of that 1 missing creep every second wave.
We were talking about a SOLO plague rider. DW can't do much against that >_>So @ people who said "GL on 1 shot killing PR with DW when PR got X,Y,Z items" I would like to say: What kind of DW will let PR get steamboots/plated greaves, ring of the teacher and be a 6lvl+ so he have a higher lvl of his armor???
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Please use the report post function
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There is more to the deny than the EXP and gold, such as the lane control and the infinite staying power.
The sign of lost Carcosa appeared in the air, paralyzing us with dread older than the very idea of time.
As we looked on in horror, the unholy sign dissolved into a lone figure, shrouded in yellow.
It's not fair to call him an...
There is more to the deny than the EXP and gold, such as the lane control and the infinite staying power..
Draco, getting plated and/or rott or bracers + 1-2 early levels of armor on pr is very viable and useful when you're up against a dw. Even when you're laning it's fine because you should have the lane at your tower (+ outlevel/farm the enemy on your lane, meaning you have way better chances than most supports against dw).
So, a few stats - if you don't like math posts, skip this one:
A typical creep wave consists of 1 archer and 3 melee creeps for a total of 227 xp.
Assuming that PR can deny 1 creep out of range of the hero's (ie no xp) +- every minute this has the effect of reducing available xp by 62 per minute.
Over a period of 6 minutes this is the equivalent of 351-372 xp (depending on whether you deny the archer for the first wave or not).
In order to get to level 6 a hero needs 2000 xp, which can be achieved in 5 minutes even if PR gets to deny all the creeps for no xp. PR by comparison can get to level 6 in 4.5 minutes assuming he last hits every creep.
The assumption of course is that each hero last hits all his own creeps. I won't get into hit animation times - suffice it to say that PR is mediocre at best.
So, the extinguish ability is worth something between 30 and lets say 45 seconds up to level 6 assuming PR levels is up on levels 1,3 and 5.
The other side of entinguish is that PR gets 15%/30%/45%/60% of the creeps hp as mana. Over a laning phase of 6 minutes PR will get +- 1072 mana less the 25 per extinguish cast = 950 = +- 2.6 mana per second. This allows him to cast 6 level 2 contagions or approximately 1 every minute of the laning phase without additional regen.
Level 2 contagion does 200 pre-mitigation damage, so PR can deal +- 150 post mitigation damage a minute.
So, to summarise :
30 to 45s level 6 advantage assuming last hitting to be equal
150 damage per minute
I don't think the 30-45s advantage is that big considering that the attack animation (0.676 attacks per second) is one of the slower ones, but I do wonder if 150 damage a minute could be a bit much.
Don't get me wrong - leveling armour against DW is good. I just think that leveling armour early instead of contagion or extinguish might help DW win the lane. DW wants to get an early bottle and get to level 6 as soon as possible.
Leveling armour might stop him killing you at level 6 (although I think he probably still can) but will probably have him ganking your sidelanes earlier.
I think the right way to beat DW is harrass him down with spammable nukes until he can't come close to last hit. Then get to lvl 6 first and try to kill him.
Yup that how I think too. Also this is one situation and there are a lot more gankers in HoN.
@Hubaris Well if you got so much lane control problems you can always call some to gank and fix the problem. Neither you are in side line or mid or solo side lane. This game is about teamplay so don't compare everything in 1v1 situations -_-
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