[2.2.0] Plague Rider

[[DRD]china]

Hi there,

I think a good idea for balance discussion would be the new Plague Rider nerf. I think it was too much.

Plague Rider has consistently proven to be a powerful hero, whether it be in the older and simpler 2-1-2 days, where he played as a support hero, or today, where he functions as a powerful solo laner.

The nerfs most recently employed do not significantly reduce his capacity to solo lane, but rather, it weakens his strength against melee-oriented heroes and shifts its effects to work equally against ranged heroes. This can be seen as a move towards allowing melee heroes to better function in a largely range-controlled arena.

Plague Rider
- Movespeed reduced from 320 to 315
- Cursed shield Armor lowered from 3/6/9/12 to 2/4/6/8
- Cursed Shield no longer applies a Movespeed Slow, just Attackspeed
- Cursed Shield now applies to all attacks, not just Melee

Lets look at the incentives for picking Plague Rider.

• Creep Deny
  
  • This is a rare aspect found only in a small set of heroes. Decreases the gold/xp that falls into the enemy's hands.
  
  
• Sustainability in lane
  
  • I'd venture to say very few heroes approach Plague Rider in his ability to stay in the lane, whittling enemies down with autos + nuke spam.
  
  
• +Armor
  
  • Team-oriented armor buff that mitigates -armor strategies, involving -armor heroes or items like Deso/Bulwark
  
  
• Powerful nuke/slow
• Powerful chain nuke/slow

There are two aspects here that are really rare. Plague Rider's ability to deny creeps, and his ability to stay in the line while forcing the opponent out.

Questions to consider:

• Were the nerfs warranted?
  
  • If yes, are further nerfs needed?
  • If no, did he need a nerf or did the changes not address the problem?
  
  
• Were the tweaks to Cursed Shield positive for the overall state of balance, in regards to melee & ranged?

Is the current Plague Rider balanced?

[[IaF]Skyve]

I still find his high base movementspeed weird, considering he primarily got it because he wasn't picked up, way back...

No reason for a hero with a low cooldown ranged slow to have that much MS, is there?

He seems fine, still very strong though.

[AcidRose]

I still find his high base movementspeed weird, considering he primarily got it because he wasn't picked up, way back...

No reason for a hero with a low cooldown ranged slow to have that much MS, is there?

He seems fine, still very strong though.

He has wings .... MS balanced

[[LosK]_Snow]

Much more balanced now, atleast in my opinion, with the nerf on his shield.

[DracoDevil]

Firstly I want to say that the 5 movement speed that were taken from him were not bad idea and I'm not against that.
I think he is more balanced now in aspect versus melee heroes because you could actually put Cursed Shield on allies. But in aspect as his own survival and his low armor and hp.
Also Cursed Shield is what made him really useful in late game where most heroes got enough HP/MS/items(shrunken,pk,barrier idol) to counter your nukes. And yes the slows from his nukes even in late game aren't bad but still in late game enemy heroes have items that makes that slow not so big or they completely remove it and also they can kill PR with only few hits and not letting him to nuke. Those are the reasons why his awesome shield, which one good PR player should always spam on 1-2 mates of his team, made him really useful.
To sum it up, I want to say that: yes he had a lot of slows and nukes and great laning abilities and he needed some nerf on his slows. BUT removing his movement slow adn reducing his armor given by his shield was too much. I mean S2 could just lower the movement speed slow to like 10/20/30% slow or 5/10/15% and 4/6/8/10 armor.
Thank you China for making this topic on my request about one of the best heroes in HoN.
~DracoDevil

P.S. To all who will say "most of the heroes are loosing their powers in late game so stop QQ". I can say that this is S2 balance problems and they should boost some heroes

[[STLI]Tupimus]

The armor nerf was long due but the MS buff should just be reverted altogether.

[[VGG]Glibber`]

I just think his deny ability throws him over the top. I wouldn't mind giving it a higher cooldown. This hero is overall pretty strong, can be send to about any lane and can fit in about any line up.

He's still a strong hero, even with the recent tweaks/nerfs. I certainly agree with the armor change, and 315 ms with his Q is still ffin strong in lane.

I wonder if there will be more *deny*-heros, or if pr gets a bit nerfed on that.. seeing he is one of the most versatile heros atm. Banned/picked up any match (not that that means he's op per se, but certainly strong/versatile).

[[LsE]Benny0]

I would like to see how the changes play out. It's not huge nerfs, but slow and steady is the best way to balance this game, by far.

I think this was a huge step in the right direction.

[man_guy]

Cursed Shield was just a plain dumb spell. One point and totally screw over melee carries up until they get Shrunken Head. A way to retain the movespeed slow and high armor would have been to change the cooldown and/or duration in a way you can't put shield on your whole team and still have the cooldown ready in case someone tries to purge it off.

[[GM]Gridlocked]

I was a big fan of Lich back in DotA and I am still a big fan of PR in HoN. This game needs more encouragement to consider denial of income/exp just as viable tactic as fast farming your self and PR dose exactly this.

[Irysa]

nerf his movespeed more. There is no reason a hero with his range and nuke power AND 2 slows should be so fast. Im kind of generally getting sick of the power creep of movement speed in this game in general. I can't remember the last hero that didn't have at least 300 base ms

edit: just checked, im technically wrong since cthulu and ra have sub 300, cthulu is still 295 with a massive slow aura and mobility with trample, and ra obviously gets +ms from his meteor. Aside from that, I think its warden (which is fine) and then you have to go back to flux, AND THEN, back to either balphagore and engineer, cant remember which came first)

[[DRD]china]

nerf his movespeed more. There is no reason a hero with his range and nuke power AND 2 slows should be so fast. Im kind of generally getting sick of the power creep of movement speed in this game in general. I can't remember the last hero that didn't have at least 300 base ms

edit: just checked, im technically wrong since cthulu and ra have sub 300, cthulu is still 295 with a massive slow aura and mobility with trample, and ra obviously gets +ms from his meteor. Aside from that, I think its warden (which is fine) and then you have to go back to flux, AND THEN, back to either balphagore and engineer, cant remember which came first)

Lich is more broken in DotA, IMO.

[Anakha]

Lich's Dark Ritual is significantly more powerful than Extinguish (HALF THE COOLDOWN FROM LEVEL 1) and still allows full denies on use (zero exp).

[Eliax]

i belive he is fine as he is now becurse of you nerf the Extinguish ability he will become allmost useless since its the real reason why he is so strong

on another note i think they shoud bring back the movement speed slow but only like 5% or 10% since he is all about slow and support

[[GnJA]Good_Apollo]

Cursed Shield and his movement speed got nerfed. For what? I have no idea. I don't think Plague is OP, he's just a very solid hero that is good in almost any meta. There's nothing wrong with that but what I find interesting is how S2 decided to tackle the notion that he was too good. He's already faster than most heroes, especially for a range and his armor buff was good but never on edge. The two spells that make him what he is were completely untouched: Extinguish and Contagion.

Interesting balancing...

[[S2]Dawnbringer]

Lich WAS basically unbalanced. I still think even with these nerfs Plague is very viable.

@ Apollo: I guess its a start :/. Although the removal of slowing on the shield I quite liked. He basically hard raped any melee carries with that shield.

[[LsE]Hsssh]

He`ll always be slightly imba until there are 10 heroes who can deny creeps as good as him because now i think once you pick him your team gets unique advantage(while Temp and Parasite can deny it`s just not on the same level) and his lane/teamfight presences doesn`t hurt either.

[KrollTing]

He is only overpowered due to his high movement speed. People fail to realize that level one he is practically useless due to skilling Sacrifice, he won't have any defensive or aggressive spells to assist him in laning. The only thing he needs is his MS rebalanced to what it previously was, the shield nerf is nothing really.

[`Tape]

He is only overpowered due to his high movement speed. People fail to realize that level one he is practically useless due to skilling Sacrifice, he won't have any defensive or aggressive spells to assist him in laning. The only thing he needs is his MS rebalanced to what it previously was, the shield nerf is nothing really.

Actually, I feel this is what makes him that extremely powerful hero, 3 creeps vs. 4 on first wave gives you the automatic lane position win and an early xp advantage.

[KrollTing]

Actually, I feel this is what makes him that extremely powerful hero, 3 creeps vs. 4 on first wave gives you the automatic lane position win and an early xp advantage.

Yes, it makes him a very powerful hero and allows him to completely avoid purchasing mana potions and get more regen to stay in the lane for a longer period. Aswell as his high nuke damage it makes him a "powerful hero". His incredibly high movement speed makes him overpowered. That is about it. If they want to completely change DotA 1:1 over time, then so be it - but he never, ever needed that MS buff.