[2.2.0] Balphagore

[GeorgeCloony]

I have been keeping up with these balphagore balance patches. Surprisingly to me, the majority of them are on the subject of reworking his w move, which I didn't even see in this patch. I think I have a great idea for it though. I'm sorry but I'm not a huge fan of his current w. It's a great move, but in the perfect situation. Honestly, its hard to use it effectively, not as only absinthe target spell. But here is an idea. What if balphagore had a move that was a single target root. Not a stun, not a silence, not a perplexity. Here is why. His move speed is slow yes, and I don't think it should necassarily be buffed. A super leet balph knows how to trap and enemy hero in his minions and put on a massive slow, so he can walk them down and kill them. But at this point, you honestly have to sneak in the back of a teamfight with your minions already out and try to micro them at the same time you steer your own hero. Let's say you are chasing some one down. You got in range of Q and you are slowly catching up. End of the regurgitate, you are possibly right on top of the hero. What's next? Pop those minions and do some work. But what's the problem? The animation on E is slow as crap. By the time your minions spawn, your enemy has left the range of your creeps, the slow is over, and you basically just wasted mana at this point. What if balph had a skeleton king like single target root, every hero could use every move and web auto attack. Ball could leap, hag could blink, dr can ult. It's not a stun just an immobilization (I imagine it weaker than booboo's root). This would give balph a chance to catch up, root (I feel like a 1 second root at lvl 4 would be absolutely plenty) and pop his minions so they can do their job.

TL;DR - balph needs a root, not a stun so that he can properly deploy his minions and let them do their job. Possibly level 4 could have a ministun, or even a minisilence, but a full stun is too much. This would replace E by the way

I really feel like this is a good idea and I would love to hear some feedback
(I'm on my iPhone in class so my editing probably sucks, excuse my poor paragraph structure)

[Dominare]

Regurgitate spawns six corpses over three seconds, right? So how about giving it a ministun every 0.5 seconds on enemies being hit by it.

[wietepiet]

I have read the first page and I do think balphagore needs a buff. I remember playing him and building him as a pusher with abyssal and greaves. However, and I can't do anything other than this, when comparing him to KEEPER he loses in every, every way. Keeper's ult is stronger, his minions are so much stronger and can take more dmg, no need to buy push items at all. And of course the base dmg and skills are all below avg when compared to keeper.

Needs number buffs. Change his minions to have unitwalking or something of the like. His ult's corpses having 522 speed would help too.
I dont have a real solution to the problem but I do know there is a problem and balphagore needs some attention.

[[GR]XFlame]

Agreed.

So basically everyone can accept that Balphagore has one glaring issue: Mana problems.
Other things mentioned that people may not agree on:

• farm issues - he has to choose between getting mana items, health items, or pushing items.
• Ultimate lacks in terms of output
• Minions are killed too easily with AoE spells

Did I miss anything?

[skeloperch]

Agreed.

So basically everyone can accept that Balphagore has one glaring issue: Mana problems.
Other things mentioned that people may not agree on:

• farm issues - he has to choose between getting mana items, health items, or pushing items.
• Ultimate lacks in terms of output
• Minions are killed too easily with AoE spells

Did I miss anything?

Just about everything except drivel about his ultimate. His biggest, most glaring weakness is that he doesn't have enough mana for a hero with 4 active spells.

[GregerMoek]

I guess that's the biggest problem most people have when they play him.

[[VGG]Glibber`]

Just about everything except drivel about his ultimate. His biggest, most glaring weakness is that he doesn't have enough mana for a hero with 4 active spells.

Which would be fine if he was tanky enough (to get a good ult off or anything), which he isn't.

I still feel they should adjust either his str or his int start/gain, or maybe lower the manacost on some spells.

[lait0N]

Make him just a little better at jungling and he's perfectly viable. At the moment he can allready jungle but will only be a tad higher level than a dual lane hero if the spawns are mediocre, if they are bad he will be very, very far behind. He can tho jungle better than any hero at a certain point cause he can eat corpses so it never get's blocked.

[[UHF]DreamReamer]

Semi off topic here, but building both mana and tankiness are his issues, so buffing abyssal skull in a way to solve one of those 2 things better would be a nice touch. It is currently a bad item that is a decent pickup on balph for the +armor(tankiness), mana regen, and push potential.

I should have probably made a well thought out topic on Abyssal but I am tired and lazy, and Balph is one of the best heroes for it atm. It would NOT be a bad thing if it helped him more.

[Launders]

You can never compare those 2....

1. farms items in half the time
2. needs got get 15 corpses until he can spam minions again - tree doen'st - so the pushing is only nice early...
3. can sneak and escape towers easilly
4. Keepers ulti >>> balphs

Balph needs buff... easy as that. An rather an ulti buff then an pushing buff.

I agree with this, Keeper is better than Balphagore in pretty much every way.

• Keeper has invis and + armor that work with trees, which unlike corpses, are pretty much everywhere.
• Keeper's minions are way tankier, and can be summoned instantly, once again corpses aren't an issue and trees are literally everywhere.
• Keeper's ult doesn't need the enemy team to blow spells in order for it to work, and is on a very low cooldown for how strong it is in both area and disable length
• Mana problems are solved with cheap, quick items that he can farm with relative ease in the jungle (invis makes it a pain to kill him in the woods).
• He jungles so obviously he opens up a solo lane.

Unless he's banned, go for the real McCoy. Just my 0.02.

[DocMesa]

A thought occurs. Given that his minion skill gains strength through nomming dead bodies, why not have his ulti work the same way? Have it build up its strength through nomming creeps rather than spellcasting?

[[GDB]Vermillion_]

Hmm, if you were to do that you would need to convert the charges into a more permanent way(because it'd be nearly impossible to get charges and use it effectively just before/during a team fight depending on how many charges were set) which would lead balphagore simply farming until his ult is at maximum capabilities every single time.

[[S2]Dawnbringer]

The issue is consistently having to gain charges. You have to wait 2 creep waves to get a full set whereas keeper can just bounce over to a stand of trees.

SUGGESTION INCOMING! (sorry china)
Now if the corpses would function in a similar manner to soulstealers... Well.

EDIT: you would probably have to raise the amount of charges though.

[Gazgkul]

Tbh i dont agree with much of what is argued here...

I play balph every time i get the opportunity, and find him much better than keeper in many aspects. Somewhat wall of text inc. Short summary at the bottom

First skill: The complaints on this here is range and low slow % as far as i can tell. Imo the range is good. Balph is a frontline hero who can tank well, so I find that if i need to gank/slow someone im usually right next to them anyway. The dmg output is also decent at low lvls making ganks and kills easy. Also the heal this skill provides while running away has saved me many many times.
MO: Q works well.

Second skill: Silence is argued as countering his ult. Wrong. This skill is great in many ways, but useless until its at lvl 3. Whats the point of a 1 sec silence? This skill either should be AoE (as it is after end of duration) or get a buff in duration. From 1/2/3/4 to 2/3/4/5 imo. Or keep it 4 secs at lvl 4 but add a ministun or something.
MO: W needs a buff or rework.

Third skill: Corpses are one of the main arguments for Keeper vs balph. Balphagore isnt meant to do what keeper does. Simple as that. Balph is supposed to be pushing lanes and getting stuck in in teamfight pushes. + if your at the fountain you have time to build up charges with it anyway. + 1 use of E + bloodchalice = 6 charges "free". I would agree that 15 is a little steep, but I rarely find myself in situations where im lacking the creeps i need. (Except maybe in long pushes solo at <lvl 8)
MO: Good skill. Works well, maybe reduce to 12 charges or let creep charges also regen a small mana amount (5/7/10/15) or something

Ultimate: The main argument here as i can tell is that you can build it up. Again i disagree based on my own gameplay of balph. His ult builds rapidly vs alot of lineups. With a shamans you have no trouble surviving to get it off early in a teamfight. If the other team has no mana nukers then you are stuffed tho.
The biggest problem i find with his ult is that the spawning creeps are next to worthless. They never explode hitting anything. Either make them suicide bombers who dive their target and explode (perhaps 450 ms and start at balph?) or make them max movespeed and just hug their target until they take enough dmg. Another suggestion is maybe making them drain mana from attacking? This would work well with balphs "anti spellcaster" role.
MO: Needs some rework. Dmg output is ok, but the extra creeps spawned need buff or rework.

General aspects:
Balphagore is IMO one of the best mid heroes. Reason: pushing power. When i go mid (yeah i know 1600 games, but still) I have few problems taking down the tier 2 tower inside 10 minutes. (See recent matches of "Grotsnik" my sub)
He is one of the best pushers out there, simply because combo of E+Q will own anything. Q can nuke down a creep wave in seconds while it resupplies E in case you need more creeps. The creeps eat towers like nothing else. 5 of them attacking a tower undisturbed will kill it solo in most cases.
He needs int buff... Simple as that. Even with a alcolytes staff and blood chalice i find myself in need of more mana...
He scales very poorly... Once the game is 45min+ he is next to useless unless he has pushed down all tier 2 towers and your at the base. In a even matchup he is worthless late game. Slow attack speed, low dmg spells and creeps get instanuked by anything with AoE spell.
Edit: Farming: Not a problem imo. Reason: Pushing power. Do your job and push towers/lanes and you will have no problem farming well. Sit back and lasthit for farm... Your not a carry, your a pusher!


To sum up this wall of text:
Q: Good
W: Needs buff/rework (duration of silence/aoe)
E: Good, needs a slight buff (reduce amount of charges or give mana from corpses)
Ult: Good, Creeps spawned need rework
General: Needs more mana + needs to scale better into lategame

[[IaF]Skyve]

A thought occurs. Given that his minion skill gains strength through nomming dead bodies, why not have his ulti work the same way? Have it build up its strength through nomming creeps rather than spellcasting?

It's not a good mechanic to begin with. His ult, the way it is currently, gives the enemy team incentive to focus Balphagore in a teamfight, which is good.
I don't think it should be chang'd.

[[S2]Dawnbringer]

/snip
Balphagore is IMO one of the best mid heroes. Reason: pushing power. When i go mid (yeah i know 1600 games, but still) I have few problems taking down the tier 2 tower inside 10 minutes. (See recent matches of "Grotsnik" my sub)
He is one of the best pushers out there, simply because combo of E+Q will own anything. Q can nuke down a creep wave in seconds while it resupplies E in case you need more creeps. The creeps eat towers like nothing else. 5 of them attacking a tower undisturbed will kill it solo in most cases.
/snip

As a mid hero he is A: melee and B: possess no way to close the gap between him and a ranged hero he is against bar walking up and trying to vomit on them all the while having to hug them. Sure creeps COULD destroy a tower if you leave them undisturbed but if Balph gets caught against say... a Soul Stealer or a Torturer you aren't going to be able to do much considering that the harrassment you will face will counteract any hope of healing you would get from corpses you managed to pickup. Also he isn't anywhere close to being one of the best pushers out there or one of the best mids out there. As a pusher he is heavily outclassed by other competition. Not only by the fact that his competition possess superior pushing power in most cases without reliance on a gimicky corpse storage mechanic but that they also have skill sets that are superior to Balphagore's in general. Infact Torturer is a far better mid hero and can destroy towers very easily with impalement too.

He is outclassed in whatever role you want to put him in. Period.

[[GGWP]xzhutler]

I really think that his silence is really messed up, because it does the opposite of what he wants with his ult. They should start with reworking his silence into something that is actually useful.

Thats a really good point!

[Anakha]

No it isn't, and it's been expounded on why it's not a good idea to exhaustion in every Balphagore thread to date.

[[LsE]Hsssh]

I remember someone did wonderful explanation "for retards", maybe it's time to track it down and put it in every Balphagore thread.

[[GR]XFlame]

The old 'I don't want you to cast spells, and when you do, I will punish you for it'?

Balphagore threads always get derailed by people that don't get that. How can they argue about a hero when they don't even fully understand how he works?