a bit off topic but since people here discuss it and it affect warding...
Why not go with double crow strat to block the pull?
Its 400 g for a guaranteed block -> keeping lanecontrol wont be and issue. It certainly weigh up for the 400 g by far. And since its a free cour now from the start this strategy shouldent be farfetched.
As for wardchange it dosent affect the balance, it affects gameplay and strategies. Noone forces you to play hardcore support wardwhore its a choice you made because it was beneficial, but it seems to be an echoe of old dota days that it is a must. HoN is taking a different road from dotA, if you like it its up to you but they should keep on doing that else dotA2 will eat HoN like it was pommes duchesse.
Last edited by owtSevoL; 09-28-2011 at 01:38 PM.
Could they not just add the ward stacks and non-free courier to the banning pick mode again? Or something like that.
Stats are like women in bikinis, they are interesting to look at however they don't show you everything.
What i see really does a big impact on the game is what many have said; the pull ward being counterwarded too easily. A solution i can think of (which for sure has flaws) is making the radius of the camp bigger (you have to anti-ward further away from the camp or it will be blocked) for those specific neutrals. Would most often need 200g to counterward it. And then remove the free courier...
Because i have not played HoN before the change and didn't play support in DotA (I do play hard support in a 1800 clan, so i am not clueless), i really dont approve of the 2 stacks of wards because it just makes it all much more complicated for reasons not good enough.
A bit off topic, what will be the actual differences of DotA and DotA 2 except new heroes? Also why did they reduce the cost of the courier in DotA by 30 gold?
203gold left (2 flasks [3 gold], 2 trees [33 gold], 1 minor + flask + clarity [0 gold], etc)
200 gold wards
233 gold left
Allows a greater combination of items, maybe? Instead of being stuck with gold left over.. Probably botched the math somewhere, but the point stands.
After reading a lot of the input in this thread, it seems that the biggest problem occurs at the beginning of the game up until the 6 minute mark. Allowing people to buy 3 wards here can give a crucial advantage to teams forcing them to choose the one viable strategy: buying 3 wards. Furthermore, allowing people to save gold before dying by quickly buying single wards at the base puts more money in certain players' pockets.
Alternatively, single wards bought at various points in the game can help a struggling team hold on by allowing them to buy a single ward when they otherwise couldn't afford two.
My proposed solution:
Wards bought @ base always come in stacks of 2, purchased for 200g and working on the normal ward timer.
Wards bought @ the observatory are available in stacks of 1 for 100g, but only AFTER 6 minutes. These wards would be on the same timer obviously, and if 3 wards are bought, additional 2 ward-stacks cannot be bought at the base. This would prevent supports from saving 100g on death by buying a single ward in base, prevent the 3-ward starting strategy, AND allow players to choose to buy singles from an inconvenient location, thus balancing the advantages implicit in buying a single.
Am I missing some problem(s) of the 1-ward meta that wouldn't be eliminated with such a change?
Unchanged, of course.
I like online game; the ability to adapt to changes is fun !
On a serious fact, even if I won't explain it much, I don't think it changed big time. Cost less, more sacrifice, cost more, less sacrifice... All of those arguments...
I just dont wanna fight them, not in this community. I've lost all fun arguing in this community, I don't even need to tell you why I guess.
I'm on the side of Support shouldn't have to sacrifice himself at 100%.
SURE you have to sacrifice, of course everyone does ; Initiator goes in for the burst on himself or to land some stuns on people so others can come.
Carry sacrifice their survivability ( sometime not completely ) to be able to get in the fight and damage the damn out of people. Support sacrifice items ( AKA buying wards, courier when it dies, buying tp to people to get faster when they can afford it ) but that's it.
If they all do their job, having wards costing 200 or 100... It shouldn't even matters imo.
The early-game, the mid-game, the late-game, all argument based of those are irrevelant to me since you don't even know if you'll get to late game or whichever.
How many time have you had a carry thinking ILL SO FARM THIS LANE and at 20 minutes scores is bad for you not because of extreme feeds but cause we lost some team fights and stuff. You're still very far of late game and probly wont even come near of it. But what ? You planned on that late game and first thing you know at 30minutes they vote for concede; they need 4 vote, you're screwed ( Yes this exemple is in public OMG !!! )
I'd just like to remind you, big carries players too, that, when that god damn support isnt buying wards cause he's already bought 3 to 4 and that you are the god damn wooder / hero killer / watever with 80cs in 15 minutes, or 9+ / 0 Kill/death, just buy a ward or two OH GOD AM I CRAZY CARRY BUYING WARDS.
Yes, if your support can't output enough wards HELP THEM, don't just SCREAM AT THEM*.
I like turtles - mememememe
I would have to say I don't mind wards as they are right now.
Still, if I had to nerf them I would try this:
Have the starting amount in the shop be 1 or 2 instead of 4.
So if they were buying 2 wards before they would be forced to buy less and would lose a little bit more time later to buy new 1.
It would also reduce the overall ward available during a game (2-3 isnt much but probably enough to solve the possible issues).
There's also the option of implementing 1 ward for 125g and 2 wards for 200g, although that would kinda screw a bit with starting gold again I think.
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I'm missing the point in this argument where anyone said, "supports are over powered, they have too much gold and are dominating games". With jungle strategies we're taking the 3-2 idea one step further. 4 semi-carries and 1 hard support. They're necessary, but are supports so dangerously OP (even in theory) that we need to find ways to nerf them?
The idea that a hard support ward ***** will save a game-breaking amount of gold by buying a single ward before dying is just dumb. In a reasonable situation wards should always be bought out at the shop. Maybe you could pick up 1 ward off cooldown or 2 wards, but at that point, what does it matter since it would be identical to the proposed backwards thinking.
And as for adding more depth in inventory awareness, I don't agree. I think it actually makes awareness more shallow. Being aware of what someone has now, and what they had before is a much more strategic ward awareness idea. Just seeing and noticing that they have an odd number of wards and asuming they warded encourages blind spamming of counter wards on an area.
And I missed the point where anyone said, "placing wards is too easy, we should make it harder by attaching an arbitrary mechanic". Placing wards is purely a knowledge based skill, it does not take positioning, high amounts of damage, HP, or any other aspect you buy with stats. Clicking on a hero to cast a spell is to easy, everything should be a targetted skill shot like in LoL, and while we're at it, channeling a spell is to easy, it's to easy to just sit there and not do anything while your hero performs the skill, we should require people to do math problems or else the channeling ends, and auto attacks are to easy as well, everything should be a skillshot, melee heroes play like X-Men Legends manually moving and hoping you picked the right target, and ranged heroes should be like geometry wars. Really? placing a ward is too easy of a skill? that's your argument?
I can understand the argument that rev-wards are to spamable, and could see those changing to be a stack of two, conforming with the theme of Dust.
In all honesty, is there any reason this has been brought up other than people seeing DotA2 and realizing, "wow, I forgot about that, why isn't HoN more like DotA?" No matter how un-fun and unnecessary the idea is.
And what is everyone's beef with supports having items? Carry's get to have items, gankers get to have items, initiators get to have items, why don't supports get to have anything other than striders and wards?
We're finally seeing wards in pubs, do you want that to go away? Ward-wars in comp games are stronger than ever. This encourages PvP play, while a backwards idea making warding "more dificult" would only encourage more PvE play. Do we really want Turtle Strats to be the go-to strat again?
Your perception and understanding of what was previously posted before you is too poor to really warrant any higher grade response from me. I tend to respect opinions, but not ones that seem as malformed as this one. Worse, you incorrectly quote and cite previous posts, as they seem garbled and mistranslated by muddled comprehension.
This is all my opinion, of course. No insult intended.
Last edited by man_guy; 09-29-2011 at 02:01 AM.
Making rev stacks 2 and if thats not enough for the ward pull problem, make it so that when a ward is placed on a pull, it will prevent any spawn of neutrals to the end of the minute even if counter-warded at 2:01 (it cant spawn in 3:00). Making normal wards stacked to 2 is not neccissary.
Dont say that "you can buy wards before dying omg!" because either you already have so much gold you have been saving for boots for example, or it works almost as good buying Homecoming stones instead. And if the rev thing is done, the wards should be bought out anyways.
1-2 max normal wards in the start is a solution for some of the early problems i have read off.
Last edited by TheForgot3n1; 09-29-2011 at 07:04 PM.
In all honesty, is there any reason this has been brought up other than people seeing DotA2 and realizing, "wow, I forgot about that, why isn't HoN more like DotA?" No matter how un-fun and unnecessary the idea is
The issue is moreso that most true hardcore support players did, in fact, come from DotA, but has nothing to do with the onset of DotA2. In DotA and the early days of HoN, supports were a niche. They were a nightmare of balance, position and love-hate. Buying a ward(stack) often meant no boots for a few more minutes.... if you don't die between now and then. Some people enjoy the challenge of being the target, the squishy, but also being pivotal in a team's overall success. I enjoy support since it's similar to playing a healer in any MMO. No one plays them, so everyone needs them. Everyone hates a bad healer, but a great healer gets more respect than good tank/fighter/mage or whatever.
Supports are (were) the same. Their selfless-sacrifice and willingness to forsake glory for victory made them a rarity. The Support buffs made "support players" a dime-a-dozen. I'm having to reteach myself how to support and learn that it's not only "okay" to have an astrolabe and boots and wards at 25 mins, but it's frowned on if I don't. To me, as to many other people as I see in this thread, it's taken the thrill out of supporting. I do it well and I do it if my team needs one, but saves are no longer clutch, they're expected. Pseudo-suicide is no longer a gimp, but an inconvenience.
Ontopic: Overall, I like the way this game is going where the game pace is getting ever faster and every role is being emphasised as equally critical at different stages, but, like China, I do miss the niche. I enjoyed filling a role that few had any interest in attempting.
All these buffs to the role are making it the go-to role for poor players. Go post on the forums that you are recruiting for a new team and see how many "I'm a support player" applications you get. I guarentee you get a lot. I also guarentee that anyone that has played since beta will tell you that finding true supports was a shot in the dark, at best, before these buffs.
EDIT: I voted "unchanged," but only because it hasn't imbalanced or balanced the game. Only shifted it's focus and gameplay.
Last edited by PlsPickTank; 09-29-2011 at 06:18 PM.
Its the perfect example of trickle down balance. The top players warded, and then could war with fewer hoops to jump through. Now 1500s are starting to ward, skills and ideas are trickling down from top tier to the middle, eventually the bottom will be warding as well.
Really, this was such an invisible change I had completely forgotten that it even was a change. Maybe for the competitors who live and breath this stuff who resist change at every turn, this might not have been forgotten. But the only reason I see for this discussion to be had now instead of a month ago is because of DotA 2 reminding us it was different. To quote GOD, "when you do something right, they won't be able to tell you've done anything at all." Invisible changes are good changes, they are unseen because they are integrated so well and just make sense.
No, let's not go onto Rev wards :3.
Anyway, it would be nice if changes were made to regain the old pre-ward-change mechanic early-game while keeping the current ward mechanics for mid-late, which would pretty much be a win-win for everything.
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