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More balanced.
Unchanged.
Less balanced.
Let's not stray from the topic. Thanks.
Well, it goes a bit both ways. On one hand you can ward more *easily*, on the other hand it's also *easier* to counterward.
There was a topic about counterwards a while ago. It might add some depth to add a max to the wards of revelation stack. Don't ask me on numbers/cooldown on it, but I find this idea pretty interesting. Would certainly de-dumb spamming counterwards after a good push or fight.
Oh, personally I'm a big fan of items on support. I don't like the *supports are not allowed to have anything but bracers and boots* mentality a lot of people seem to have.
I'll second that statement at the very least.Originally Posted by Glibbersmurf
The fact that the wards are no longer in stacks of 200 gold means that there can be more distribution among the people on the team. Thatcan buy a ward at the start now and still start with some stats and regeneration, while
can still upgrade the courier and buy wards for the pull and rune spots; neither player is forced into buying more than needed at the time. They are given the choice and the ability to split wards, allowing for more creative warding and ward usage.
I'd say the change is positive as it adds more decision making to the game. It allows for supportive wardwhores to make some money, spice up fights with a push, extra disable, heal, dust usage, revelations etc. They aren't forced to sink way too much into something that will help the team but gimp them entirely for a small duration (which can be an eternity for a pure stacker and supporter). The choice of sacrifice is still there, it is now more important than ever as they can avoid it if they want. They now have to choose to sacrifice.
It allows for more self-choice, the choice to buy exactly how much you need and to delay marchers or delay a power supply. It means a carry (:jera: forbid) can buy a ward every 6 minutes when hes farming at 400 GPM. It makes the decision making process more varied and definitely more dynamic.
I understand it is double edged in the sense that you can now play more defensively as well, but with the counterward reward, there is more incentive to play aggressively and snuff out those wards. I'd like to say that its more balanced, it evens out the game for supporters who are seen as lambs for the greater good; but in essence it hasn't changed, only the vehicle to reach that means has.
tl;dr: Ward change allows for more variety and dynamic itemization choices and still allows for sacrifice but in a different way.
Last edited by Hubaris; 09-27-2011 at 06:47 PM. Reason: A few sentences were added. Got cut when pasting.
The sign of lost Carcosa appeared in the air, paralyzing us with dread older than the very idea of time.
As we looked on in horror, the unholy sign dissolved into a lone figure, shrouded in yellow.
The only real thing that has made warding -a tiny bit- harder with the change. Before if you saw some enemy support with three or one ward you could be sure he placed one already and you have the chance of deducing where he placed it if you know where he came from. Nowadays if he's running around with one you are not completely sure he placed something from where he came from, now I'm not saying that this have a big impact by any means and it goes both ways really as the enemy support has to keep this in mind.
That's about the only thing I can see that it has changed "skill-wise" and since it goes both ways it was almost a +1 -1. One thing it did for sure however is to make support economy easier, which yeah in certain scenarios would buff the support role as a whole considering they can manage their economy easier.
Now I realize that any potent support will most likely use all their wards every cooldown anyways, if he is capable, so I can see why some people might say that "it doesn't change anything for pros, just noobs in pubs".
Now all I have written is about that it got easier, does this affect balance in any way? I would say yes, since it has an effect on the ward-support's economy. In some cases only one warder-support might be enough, sometimes two-three support is too much, although we all know that some support-labeled heroes could be useful doing something else too. Along with the introduction of striders, free courier and making wards harder to kill in most cases has made it easier for supports. Not to mention there is less risk in investing in an item, and as a ward-support it's in some cases a risk to buy an item instead of a ward, counterward or courier.
Blahblah I'm rambling, my main point is that it has made ward-supporting economy handling easier which might or might not have affected how you draft.
I don't think that this chance alone changes a lot, however together with all the other things, such as assist gold, free courier, hardwards and Striders it makes a difference.
Feel free to point things out, it's an interesting subject IMHO.
Stats are like women in bikinis, they are interesting to look at however they don't show you everything.
Did S2 state why they changed from double to single stacks?
In all honesty, I think we're looking into it a bit too deeply. Unless the game is bleedingly broken(read unplayable, completely unfair for one side) by a change, these changes will always be adapted to and built upon.
What I can see happening if supports were flooded with gold is that the die-hard support heroes who, with no farm outclasses any other hero-type but with much farm is outclassed by the rest, will become less useful overall because they will get farm and people will chose to pick something that could use the farm better.
Edit: to the poster above, while it might not be a huge problem it's still interesting to discuss. At least that's what I think. Haters gonna hate.
Stats are like women in bikinis, they are interesting to look at however they don't show you everything.
I made a similar thread to this in competitors five or so months ago, when the change was implemented. The thread was three pages long, but here's some snippets as the topic was quickly settled upon before we moved towards the problem of counterwards and gem, and how easily employed they are.
The topic, remarkably, is being talked about again in competitors, as it is an 'issue' that has been mentioned by competitors time and time again.
The effect competitively, is in short, severe in the eyes of those who play in that arena.
Not to mention that wards are one of the most powerful items in the game and they got easier to manage. Together with the assist gold change and all the other stuff the price on wards could have been increased without much impact. But they will never do that and I don't think many would like it.
I could imagine myself trying that however.
Now that I think about it, I enjoyed playing ward support more a few months ago, nowadays it's just not as fun. Might or might not have to do with all the changes to support economy. *shrug*
Stats are like women in bikinis, they are interesting to look at however they don't show you everything.
<pointless>
Last edited by Anakha; 09-27-2011 at 07:56 PM.
Let me spell it out plain for you
Angry people complain about the things I do
I'm not changing direction, I'm stepping my game up
Maintaining my name, the same way I came up.
Truth is, I thought it mattered
I thought that music mattered.
But does it? Bollocks!
Not compared to how people matter.
I would hate this change and love it at the same time.
Warding has become too easy. I mean, I don't even really think about it anymore at all. I always have the 100g. Vision of the map shouldn't be so easy.
I know S2 wants to help Support heroes and I love that idea a lot, but they way they go about with these methods are ridiculous and stupid.
There's pretty much no such thing as a hard-push strategy that succeeds, and often, Sender and I would rotate wards so we could both appreciate an item or two in a game. Shared sacrifice, easy.
http://www.playdota.com/learn/support
See the bit with sacrifice?
Melting yet,? I didn't even read the article but I'm surprised how well it echoes what I believe.
You're not teaching me or anyone else here anything, Anakha. Also, molding words to mean something else won't save you from righteous :jera:.
Last edited by china; 09-27-2011 at 07:29 PM.
I've made my point right here then with this admission. You may continue on.
Let me spell it out plain for you
Angry people complain about the things I do
I'm not changing direction, I'm stepping my game up
Maintaining my name, the same way I came up.
Truth is, I thought it mattered
I thought that music mattered.
But does it? Bollocks!
Not compared to how people matter.
There are reasons why hard pushes fail, and why no one does it - there's no one that benefits from support, scaling into the later game. No fall-back option in the event of failure. And all a team has to do is stall for time, and make tower pushes take longer than desired, so as time wears on they become stronger while hard-push becomes weaker.Let's use a hard push strat as an example. Every single hero is integral to sealing your win condition (throne), as every hero adds something important to success and thus needs to stay alive in order to affect the outcome of the game.
Are you going to suicide supports and gimp them in order to achieve this outcome? No, you aren't.
Banking on ambiguous points and meanings only allow you to mold your words to your benefit. Indefinites and dodging counters your only answer?
Really not going to handle any more OT discussion.
Stick to the wards: any further OT posts will be deleted, as I've settled on it far earlier as a difference of opinion. But of course, there's disagreement.
It's not a balance change so much as an optimization. It makes warding easier, splitting wards to different locations on the map easier, and distributing starting gold easier.
And it encourages pubs to buy wards. Which IS a factor.
I don't even know why this thread exists, though. It's not like there would be any reason to change it back, everyone hated it the way it was before.
I haven't read this thread.
Last edited by china; 09-27-2011 at 07:52 PM.
Look at DotA.
Look at DotA 2.
Look at this thread.
Blanket statements really have no place in this forum.
Edited your post for good humor.
P.S. Anakha, I'm deleting any further discussion about supports and the meaning of it. Reading comprehension, thanks.
P.P.S. Didn't even bother reading itI can be abrasive too.
Last edited by china; 09-27-2011 at 07:53 PM.
If you're ignoring a discussion about the core reason that this could potentially be an issue, why bother starting the thread in the first place⸮
I am of the opinion that balance is different, rather than more or less balanced. Whereas before, ward *****es were the order of the day, now you can ward *****, or you can get support items, or you can go somewhere in between. More options leads to more interesting gameplay options, and more potential for different strategies.
While sight is now easier, the difference is 100g moved from one support to a different support every ward cooldown. I don't think this is gamebreaking, but what do I know. Counterwarding is likewise easier now, but noone complains about that.
Allowing supports to buy one ward at a time is the best change in HoN ever, both teams can buy wards so it's balanced just like Sol...
Complaints from comp players isn't about balance, they complain because people are actually warding for a change, and because of that it's suddenly too easy?
If you want to "nerf" wards, just change the max stack from 4 to 3 rather and maybe increase cooldown.
Otherwise ruin the game for 99% of other players for the sake of the comp player's egos.
Nightmarish
Custom Zombie Survival Map for HoN
http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/sh...9#post15049429
Because defining something like support is going to lead to more disagreement than agreement. This thread is about wards, not what support is. Wards can have an effect on gameplay, regardless of who or what buys it, as long as the gold early on is spent.
Also, competitors complain about it.
I'm done leaking bits of competitors just to prove a point though, and really, people ought to quit with the blanket statements.
What?
Competitors have always warded against other competitors.
Are you failing to really comprehend the subtle influences of such a change?
- Supports can easily buy an additional ward to protect mid, without losing an additional 100 gold on a ward that would mostly remain unused until the earlier wards expire.
- This encourages reactive/defensive play, and requires the other team to buy counterwards to prevent it. Even then, clever placement of the ward makes it ineffective for the other team to attempt that, unless they have garnered sufficient knowledge on the opposing team. Again, the work:reward ratio here is not very cost-effective, as the defensive team can easily alter and mix-up their ward placements.
- Supports can spend 100 gold whenever they have the gold to assure that they do not lose gold upon death.
- Before they would have to find 200 gold to do the exact same. This is pretty large, as it effectively results in support heroes losing less gold upon death.
- Supports can split purchases of wards.
- This allows support to use the remaining money on a crow and/or counterward the pull. Often, this is a tactic that wins a lane relatively easily if the opposing team has not constructed a lineup that is capable of confronting them at the neutrals.
Please, read it. I'm about to delete every post in this forum that isn't reflective of competitive play - because balance occurs at the highest level, and trickles down to the lower levels.
Have some people forgotten that? Has this forum degenerated so far as to forget that important bit?
And again, more blanket statements.
The reason would be to make support less dumb and simple? Right now the ones that are satisfied with this are the ones that believe the worst player on the team should be support and only keep the wards up and not die.
Everyone didn't hate it the way it was before. Your opinion does not reflect everyone's opinions. ^^
"It makes warding easier, splitting wards to different locations on the map easier, and distributing starting gold easier."
You said it yourself, it makes to the very least these three things easier. In an extreme case this means that you don't even need a traditional support hero to do the job if you only care about the wards. I realize I'm taking it to the extreme but that's just to make it more visible.
I might be wrong but that's what I see and feel about it. As I've said before this change alone had a small impact, as a whole with all the support changes it's getting up there however.
Edit: I'm just looking at this from a general perspective, for details or examples I would point towards china's posts. The result of making certain things easier.
Last edited by GregerMoek; 09-27-2011 at 08:20 PM.
Stats are like women in bikinis, they are interesting to look at however they don't show you everything.
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