Yes, I think this hero and his abilities should be added!
I like the general idea but it needs...
No, he seems too powerful/weak because of...
No, I don't like him because...
Aqueous, the Water ElementalEST. July 18 2009
I agree with a post in the suggestions section that says HoN should be closer to a carbon copy of DotA before tons of new heroes are added. I feel that some of the heroes (shaman,scout, etc.) are imbalanced and so new hero suggestions, even my own, should not be implemented until the current build of HoN is balanced enough to handle it. Adding more imbalanced heroes will only make it impossible to fully balance out.
Anyways, the objective is to make the hero as fun as possible to play by making some of his skills adapt to his different "stances" so the player constantly has to know what is going on and can perform unique and appropriate supportive moves for his team. Aqueous is no longer anything near to being a port to Broodmother. He is now his own unique hero.
Dying, fleeing humans rumored that a beast lived in the lakes that would consume any human that wandered too close. Aqueous, a mysterious and curious being, only wanted to befriend the humans. He didn't understand why they stopped moving once being dragged underwater. Once called upon to fight for the Legion, he gladly accepted and joined his beast brethren in the fight against Hell.
For the model, I was thinking of a water-elemental look such as Morphling. However, without any shells and without so much form (more blobby and ever-changing.) The model would have modifiers for each of the three stances. In balanced stance he would look normal, when mass is shifted to arms the arms would be bigger and have water spray particle effects and when mass is shifted to torso he would be fatter and look more like a tank.
Movement speed- 260
Attack speed- .59
Attack range- 125 (melee)
Water Pool (active summon)- Creates a slight depression in the ground in the target area which is filled with water that will last for a certain duration. While in a pool of water, (terrain water does nothing, ever), enemies are slowed and Aqueous has a chance to dodge physical attacks. The movement speed decrease stays on for 2 seconds after leaving the pool. Creates a whirlpool if cast on terrain water so it can be seen. (Can have as many pools as the cooldown:duration ratio lasts.) Costs 40 mana. 30 second cooldown. This would look much more professional than the traditional web from the old broodmother and add to HoN's stunning water visuals. It would mainly be used for early game, lane farming, and throwing infront of a running hero (only if Aqueous somehow gets inbetween the fleeing hero and the enemy base, a clutch move with any hero.)
Level 1 - 4% enemy slow and 10% dodge chance. Pools last 30 seconds.
Level 2 - 6% enemy slow and 14% dodge chance. Pools last 50 seconds.
Level 3 - 8% enemy slow and 18% dodge chance. Pools last 70 seconds.
Level 4 - 10% enemy slow and 22% dodge chance. Pools last 100 seconds.
Shift Mass (passive bonus)- While in a pool, Aqueous can shift his mass so that more water is concentrated either around his arms, his torso, or balanced. When his arms have extra mass, damage is increased based on agility at the cost of agi.x0.1 armor. When his torso has extra mass, health and magic armor is increased based on strength at the cost of 10% attack speed. When balanced, there are no bonuses or penalties. Costs 50 mana. 2 second cooldown. This gives Aqueous offensive/defensive stances as well as the ability to come back to balanced (default) stance, just like morphling was able to do in DotA (now changes instantly but only in pools.) The three buttons will take the space of one button such as with SoulEater's nuke.
Level 1 - Adds agi.x0.2 damage or str.x2.0 health with str.x0.06 armor
Level 2 - Adds agi.x0.4 damage or str.x3.0 health with str.x0.09 armor
Level 3 - Adds agi.x0.6 damage or str.x4.0 health with str.x0.12 armor
Level 4 - Adds agi.x0.8 damage or str.x5.0 health with str.x0.15 armor
Spray (active target debuff)- Sprays the target with water, reducing their armor and changing the movespeed of a hero depending on mass shifts. When mass is shifted to arms, the target is slowed. In balanced mass, allies around the target have increased movespeed. When mass is shifted to torso, the target's next hit increases its victim's movespeed. Lasts 5 seconds. Costs 75 mana. 30 second cooldown. When offensive, the enemy being chased gets slowed. When defensive and being chased, the chaser will increase Aqueous's speed upon attack. When balanced and in a gank situation, Aqueous could increase the speed of multiple allies or himself for a short time. This mechanic is much cooler and more fun then a straight MS bonus from pools since it keeps the player on their toes and always thinking along with the ult.
Level 1 - 5% movespeed change, -2 armor.
Level 2 - 10% movespeed change, -2 armor.
Level 3 - 10% movespeed change, -4 armor.
Level 4 - 15% movespeed change, -4 armor.
Power in Mass- (Autocast/next attack modifier) When activated, Aqueous's attacks have extra effects based on the way his mass is distributed throughout his body. When mass is shifted to his arms, his attacks have a chance to stun for 2 seconds (does not stack with basher.) When mass is balanced, attacks slow enemy attack speed. When mass is shifted to his torso, attacks drain the mana of enemies. Costs 40 mana (per attack.) 1 second cooldown. I am considering making the mana drain into a silence/chance to silence.
Level 1 - 15% stun chance OR 15% attack speed slow OR 20 mana drained.
Level 2 - 20% stun chance OR 30% attack speed slow OR 35 mana drained.
Level 3 - 25% stun chance OR 45% attack speed slow OR 50 mana drained.
With this build, aqueous no longer focuses on surprise attacks and invisibility inside of pools. He functions a bit more like morphling in the sense that he can become defensive if he is about to die but is not anywhere near as annoying because he can only change stance while in water. The ultimate now provides a lot of support and encourages more team work since it can weaken a target in a way that is necessary depending on the situation.
Please give feedback! This hero has really been shaping up nicely and is pretty near finalization.
Last edited by Evilite; 07-23-2009 at 02:38 PM.
Tall form has a very weak bonus I think. I mean, compared to troll warlord who got MS and bash vs 3 armor and 20 damage. Other than that it feels like it's a good idea.
But how do you explain him being invis at rank4 in the pool? I mean, technically.
He just gets very good at doing the form, i dont know :P
You are right that the tall form doesn't have the bash but the crit bonus is really a huge deal IMO and you can lower their armor by 4 which troll couldn't do. Something extra could be added later of course. There is no way to perfectly balance a hero before implementation. I didn't want to make this hero one that slowed down near-dead enemies in order to kill them because the Spider Lady in HoN already does that (based off of Viper) and so does Madman with barrel roll and Scout of course. I see Aqueous as more of a surprise attacker with high damage and if you get away from him, you are good to go.
This game does not need broodmother, or any derivative. Also, being able to be invisible as a ranged hero from lvl 7 onwards is ridiculous. Also, six pools at max level? Really?
Sorry but I don't think you thought this idea through properly, this hero is only going to cause frustration and annoyance for anyone who has to deal with it. Much like broodmother then.
Honestly...invisible and ranged at lvl 7?
Enemies could always throw up wards by the pools and some pools will be more used by a certain player for killing than others. Some pools will be just for the movement speed bonus so that narrows down ward placement to 3-4 pools. Broodmother had a ranged ability that did 300 damage and it even spawned spiders that multiplied and slowed enemies (LOL!). I don't see anything wrong with the number of pools either. Brood had 8 and I feel that that was a bit overkill. This hero brings very new and unique content to the game and if it is overpowered or underpowered, numbers can be tweaked with ease.
even with fewer pools than broodmother this hero is still ridiculous.
And yes wards can be thrown up of course, but by that logic you could make any hero introduced have stealth by the same justification.
I feel bad for saying this, but I don't like the idea of a Broodmother-type hero being a water elemental =/ I'd much prefer to see a model like this go towards something styled as a fluid (pardon the pun), adaptable hero, much like morphling was.
That being said, I do love the tall form/short form adaptability, and the bonuses that come with it, although you could probably get away with making Liquid Strength into a normal skill and maybe something like a mass split into smaller forms for the ulti?
I'd say, if anything, it's the invisibility that bugs me. I think it would be better if you changed the pools to be a boost to his combat skills, or maybe a blink to the pools, and nerf the number down to 4 or so. If he gains the power boost in the river too, it would turn him into a very strong, very adaptable defender.
But with your question in mind:
Tall form and the passive should be switched, so that tall form is the ultimate.
The chance to hit reduction should be reduced to 5 seconds, have a 1 minute cooldown and the mana cost should be increased greatly as this is an exceptionally good ability for getting away from strength heroes, and chasing down low health heroes.
The ultimate (tall form) should have a set duration based on what level it is, should give more attack power bonus as it's an ultimate, but should always make you visible, even when taken at lvl 16.
It should also have a longer cooldown to reflect it's status as a kind of nuke ultimate, say 150 seconds or something. I think it should last 10/15/20 seconds. There's obvious utility in this in that if you spray water in your opponents eyes and then pop ulti you can have your way with them still.
The ultimate, rather than granting armour should reduce armour. This would force you to choose a good time to use it rather than just using it whenever it's on cooldown to get a free kill, as is the case with broodmothers ultimate.
While i'm at it the critical strike chance should always be active when in tall form but in short form the movement speed slow should be activated and cost a small amount of mana per hit, in the style of arachna's spider web etc. (but melee.)
I really don't like broodmother but i think with the numbers scaled down this hero could be okay.
It's good you recognised that a straight port of the broodmother would be dumb.
Edit: number of pools, 1/2/3/5 imo
I like the ideas for Spray lasting shorter and the ulti was originally going to be swapped for tall form but if the tall form only lasts 5 seconds then he isn't a very adaptive hero, he is just like all of the other heroes. I will put some thought into it but it is going to be tough. I will also remove the invisibility (replacing it with IAS) and make it so the river buffs him too and he can only have 1/2/3/4 pools. Also, I dont know how making the MS slow activatible would work.. it would be some complex button work. I will update it soon, once i figure out how it can all work.
that hero should be tidebreaker old dota hero from RoC skills should be no different from old dota hero
I don't think I understand that post =/
But yeah, Evilite, I would say changes like that would really improve the hero =]
Okay, I have just completed HUGE changes for this hero and it is basically a new hero now, based on the great feedback received so far.
-Tall form was kept largely the same but now is a stance-changing spell. Each of the three stances will change the effects of Spray and Power in Mass AND will increase health/damage at the cost of the other.
-The pools are not like Broodmother's webs anymore. Only one pool can be summoned and does not last forever unless the skill is maxed out. The pool acts as a slowing area to fleeing/chasing enemy heroes and gives dodge chance to Aqueous for lane farming.
-Spray was made more useful but has a 30 second cooldown and high cost. It is now used for movespeed control based on the form (there are now 3) that Aqueous is in.
-The ultimate is now an activated/autocast attack modifier (instead of a passive modifier) slightly like what Illyrian suggested. It can make attacks stun(offense), slow attack speed(balanced), or drain mana(defense.)
I have to say, this revision looks simply awesome. Now he's the perfect example of a flowing, ever changing hero, possibly even more so than Morphling.
The only teeniest thing I can say about it is the pools having a limit of one, and the last level being permanent. With the shortish cd and low mana cost, I think it would be fair let more than one be in play at a time, and to simply make the last level non-permanent. 75 seconds would let you have 3 in play at once, with one well on its way to drying up, while the other two would allow two, which seems fair enough. It won't imbalance team fights either, seen as it's rare for them to last longer than 30-40 seconds.
All things considered though, I already think he's pretty great. Like I said, pretty much as fluid as a water elemental should be
Thanks for the input! I decided to force 1 pool max so that players would not spawn all of of their pools together to make a super-pool that is hard to dodge. However, since enemy MS is slowed for an additional 2 seconds after leaving a pool, having all of his pools touching would be disadvantageous. Therefore, 4 pools is the new max (but it is basically 3 since the 4th would only last ~5 seconds.) I hope to have some icons up soon.
Lovely stuff! Here's hoping he gets in sometime soon
Can you possibly add a poll to the OP though? A general opinion would probably be helpful. Maybe worth making a whole new topic so people can say why they like/dislike him, and keep this topic for discussing actual balancing?
I added a poll with voting options that encourage feedback. I couldn't find that darn "add a poll to this thread" button until I looked harder for it just now!