I'm having a conversation with a friend who says shieldbreaker is worthless.
I tend to like shieldbreaker as a first dps item on a carry.
He goes for brutalizer on almost every carry. Can anyone chime in on if the -5 armor is good.. like numbers..
it depends a lot on the hero. Magebane needs brutalizer asap, while pest with shieldbreaker is impossible to stop.
both items are good for dps. i prefer brutalizer over shieldbreaker tho imo. It really depends on who you are playing against. A shieldbreaker will turn int class heroes to butter whilst a brutalizer would be good against other dps heroes as it will disable them with the stun allowing you to get more hits in.
We were watching the QuC vs svf or something.. i dont remmeber the name. He kept saying that shieldbreaker on pest was retarded and i think its a great item on him combined with his ult -armor..
Well, Pestilence doesn't need Brutaliser for sure. Same thing with Chronos. They'd benefit more from Shieldbreaker.
Say, I think I may have played against your friend. Does he get Brutaliser on Pest?
he believes armor is worthless basically.. i'm trying to find info that gives #'s in reguards to # of armor.
Tell him that if you give someone -armor, HIS dmg reduction will go from X% to a much lower percentage.
So giving someone -armor will increase your damage with a certaina mount of %. This depends on the target's armor
you can just look them up on your character in game. 5 armor = about 25% damage resist.
So... removing 5 armor = around +25% damage.
its something crazy like that. Whatever the case.. shield breaker and -armor items/powers are great.
On madman ive been favoring the Brutalizer lately because his attack speed is great for weapon procs.
*edit* and as the guy above me said.. the amount that -5 armor actually gives scales with the amount of armor they have (since your damage mitigation from armor goes down the higher it gets... meaning.. someone with 5 armor has 25% resists..while someone with 10 armor may have 40% resist. So removing 5 armor from a guy that has 10 armor would only net you a 15% damage boost, savvy?).
Its probably bad when your quotation text is actually longer than the sentence you put it in.
Your friend is wrong and a noob.
Shieldbreaker is retarded on Pest? lulz. How is it retarded? You build to your hero's strengths. Pest is a damage dealer and has an ult that reduces armour...putting one of the best damage items on him that ALSO reduces armour is great.
Here is info on armour, it isn't worthless:
Armour REDUCTION does drop off in effectiveness after a while but increased damage is increased damage, and Shieldbreaker makes Pest a beast. Combined with BKB and he can fight anyone. ANYONE.It is generally conceived that armor gets less and less effective the more you have (since the extra damage reduction gets less and less). That a Plate Mail gives you less extra protection from attacks if you already have 20 armor than if you would have only 5. This is false. If one Plate Mail makes the hero survive 3 extra attacks, than 4 Plate Mails will make the hero survive a total of 12 extra attacks before dying. Each Plate Mail gives the same amount of extra protection, which is in this case 3 more attacks before dying.Every armor point adds an additional 6% of your maximum HP to your EHP.
Consider a hero with 1000 hp and 0 armor. To kill it one needs to deal at least 1000 damage to it.
If we give the hero 10 armor, which is 37.5% damage reduction, every attack would only deal 62.5% of the original value (100% - 37.5% = 62.5%). To kill it now, one needs to deal 1600 damage (1600 * 0.625 = 1000). You could say that the hero now have 600 more effective hp (EHP).
If we instead give the hero 20 armor, which is 54.5% damage reduction. The damage multiplier is now 45.5%. The damage needed to kill would increase to 2200 (2200 * 0.455 = 1000). The increase in EHP is 1200, twice the amount as given by only 10 armor.
Shield Breaker is far superior to Brutalizer, infact Brutalizer is generally pretty bad and there's only a few heroes I'd consider getting it on, and I probably never would in a high level game. Shield Breaker gives incredible amounts of damage/cost.
It depends on who you're playing and who you're hitting. Pest and Chronos never get brutalizer, they have bash already.
If the enemy you're hitting has 40 armor, shieldbreaker's -5 armor is practically worthless, as the difference between 35 and 40 armor is very small. However, if the enemy has 5 armor, or you have other abilities that add to -armor, it can be a 20% damage bonus on top of the +60.
Brutalizer scales with attack speed and works best on melee heroes with few or no disables of their own. Personally I never get it, but it's fairly common on Magebane.
Regardless of their armour value, you will still kill them in less hits with the armour debuffs. It's a common misconception that armour debuffs will do less to a high-armour target in a pragmatic sense (although in a pure percentage-based method it is quite correct). ChronoDroid posted how this is explained, but I will run through a swift example below.
We establish that:
(1) We have a hero with 1000 HP and zero armour.
(2) Each point in armour gives 6% reduction in damage based on the previous value (i.e. first point will give you (100 * 0.06)extra, the second point will give you ((100 * 0.06) * 0.06 extra) such that the damage reduction is diminishing. (source: http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_mqoznq0jnI...00-h/armor.jpg)
=> If we give this hero one point of armour, he will have 6% damage reduction and as such he will have (1000 * 1.06) = 1060 Effective Hit Points (EHP).
=> One more point in armour will give him 6% more of the remaining 94% (i.e. 94 * 0.06 = 5.64).
=> 1060 * 1.0564 = 1119.784 (~1120) EHP with 2 Armour
=> A third point will give ((100 - 6 - 5.64) * 0.06 = 5.3016).
=> 1119.784 * 1.053016 = 1179.2 (~1180) EHP with 3 Armour.
As you can see, although the damage reduction percentage has diminishing returns, the effects of this are quite linear indeed, each point giving roughly 60 more EHP to the hero.
That is why Shieldbreaker is a fantastic item.
OP, feel free to get a shirt which says 'I am always right' and wear it around your friend
Well, I'm gonna give you some real numbers.
Say you are using Pestilence, at level 25, only item is Shieldbreaker. You are fighting against a level 25 Keeper of the Forest, without any items.
At level 25 KotF HP is 2658, and his armor's 10,24.
At level 25 Pest base attack is 145. Adding +60 damage from Shieldbreaker, its 205 damage per attack, average.
First scenario: how many attacks would it take to Pest kill KotF without any armor reductions?
With an armor of 10,24, his damage reduction is 38,1%. We can think of it as as increase in his maximum HP, which is the concept of EHP. Its the "real" HP the hero has, taking in account his armor.
In this case, his EHP would be 4291. As it deals 205 damage per attack, it would take 20,93 attacks to kill KotF.
Second scenario: applying the effects of Shieldbreaker.
It would mean reduct KotF armor to 4,24. The damage reduction now would be of 20,2%. His EHP would be 3334. It means it would take 16,26 attacks to kill him.
Third scenario: applying Shieldbreaker AND Pestilence's Swarm. Would mean that KotF armor now would be -10,76. Would mean his negative damage reduction, or damage amplification, is now 48%. His EHP now would be 1795. To kill him it would take only 8,76 attacks.
Tell me if you want the calculations.
So, what do you think, does it make a difference?
If Shieldbreaker will bring the target's armor below -2, Shieldbreaker is the highest damage per gold spent item in the game.
Brutalizer in no way a good item for most heroes, even Magebane. Magebane should never get Brutalizer as part of his core build, it should only be taken after Wingbow or Geometer's Bane are built.
Pestilence should never get Brutalizer period. Insanitarius, Shrunken Head, Heart of the Behemoth, ShieldBreaker, Whispering Helm, Symbol of Rage, Enhanced Marchers, Daemonic Breastplate, etc. Are all much better items for him.
If it can bring the target's armor to -2, then indeed Shieldbreaker is the best damage per gold item. And that's why it stacks so beautifully with Pestilence's Swarm. Most if not all the target's in the mid-late game, specially the AGI ones, will have armor bigger than 4. Therefore Shieldbreaker can't reach its maximum potential.
However it is important to note that in terms of damage per second (dps) per gold this is not the best item; Savage Mace is better, as Wingbow is if the hero is an AGI type.