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so what were you thinking when you created a hero with troll's ulti, but also gave him a windwalk and a blink with aoe slow?
seriously needs to find some people who know how to balance heroes...
troll was the most overpowered hero when you allow him to farm in dota, so now he gains blink and windwalk, practically ungankable, you call that balance?
I would like to have a mode option where host can ban the use of certain heroes. (similar to -CM)
based on hero ban ratio, you will know which heroes are imbalanced, and fix them.
Not talking about the imbaness or not of the Madman,
But troll was a strong carry because of his ulti in synergy with his bash, which madman does not have.
you also forgot the fact that madman has passive crit, and HoN's hero damage is higher compare to dota's at higher levels.
that makes farming neutrals much easier and when you can kill an enemy in 3-4 hits, who needs bash? can you run away from him? no, because he has windwalk and blink+slow.
I'd trade a 10% bash for windwalk and blink+slow any time.
bash is in no way imba, otherwise there wouldn't be a 25% bash item.
You just can't make a late game carry hero with the mobility of clinkz and QoP combined, on top of able to use armlet and SnY to kill a farmed 5-man team.
I agree with him, Madman is really imbalanced, he is almost impossible to gank due to his invisibility and speed (even with Arachnia slowing him, tested).
If he can farm just a little he can change the result of a game alone.
Played a game where we were winning, he killed one hero in our side, became invisible, killed an other one, jumped on a third, killed him and finished the two last by pursuing them to the base.
A group of five heroes with only 2 levels between them and madman (well stuffed too) ganked by Madman alone. I think there is a lot of work to do to lower him a little but keeping him a good hero though.
So many posts, so many wrongs. Dusts/Wards/Disables vs Madman. Madman gets KO'ed. Although I find it silly that he got Barrel roll, if it were only for the troll ulti and weavers walk it'd be ok. But to give him a secondary escape/offensive mechanism that synergizes so well with his other skills are sick!! Sick I tell ya!
But well, he's agi and just like any other agility hero he's easily CC'd and nuked down until he gets a Shrunken Head, and when he does you have to avoid him when it's on.
Also I assume you guys never heard of the item blademail, but even though I cant remember the HoN equalent at the moment it's a gamebreaking item versus agility heroes that you feel are too fed. Since if he jumps someone and that someone pops his blademail the team should be able to gib him while he has to decide whether to suicide or stop attacking hence making him useless those seconds.
I'd love to see the game a Madman solos 5 people solo.
wards, doesnt work, mobility.
dust, doesnt work, mobility.
disable, yes, temporary if we can dps him down, ignoring his other teammates.
oh, there's an item called bkb in dota, you heard of it? I think most troll players in dota get that as a second big item.
blademail? you think that'll last long enough for us to run all the way back to fountain? because if not, windwalk and blink+slow will catch up to you no matter how fast you run.
I don't really care what items counters what skill, you can't force an entire team to go for 1 item because the other team picked a hero.
Again, the balance issue really is mobility+physical damage. take away the mobility and hes good to go.
What about a heavy nuker/disabler? I do believe that a top item to get is a BKB. What if a stealth hero is picked? you MUST get 1 of 3 items... Items always have been used to counter hero abilities.I don't really care what items counters what skill, you can't force an entire team to go for 1 item because the other team picked a hero.
You cry way too much bro. Don't scream nerf when you are incapable of countering his abilities. Do you play easy mode? Things tend to become unbalanced fast in there, not so much in non em's.Originally Posted by darksorrow
Just played Madman, and i must say he is weak at the beginning of the game but when you stuff a little, he becomes a monster. I managed to return the situation that was really bad for us in a victory i'm not proud of.
A big 4 vs 4, 3 kills by Madman with 4 levels less than the faced heroes.
They should change barrel roll, invisibility or damage. He's just too powerfull.
I see madman as any other carry. You either sit on him and let him get 0 gold, or you prep yourself for utter annihilation. I've played plenty of games where he has dominated partially due to my failure to help with the ganks. But I've also played games with people willing to communicate where we just wrecked the other team. Madman may need rebalancing, but its nothing we can't deal with whilst people fix more important problems.
he's easily CC'd and nuked down until he gets a Shrunken Head, aMaybe if you whined less and played more you'd know that shrunken head is the HoN version of BKB.oh, there's an item called bkb in dota, you heard of it?
Are you serious? If your team doesnt have a single CC then it wasnt madman being imba, then it was you guys picking completely wrong because everyone wanted to be the imba carry. His mobility goes as far as you let it, land one stun and he's down for counting, if he has 4 teammates there you're obviously going to focus him first so he will still drop dead due to his low hp.wards, doesnt work, mobility.
dust, doesnt work, mobility.
It all goes down to if you let him farm uncontested or not. And I've already agreed on barrel roll being a lolskill. Stop making a moron out of youself Darksorrow and realize this game aint diffrent from dota. And in dota you do not let agility hero farm or you'll lose the game most likely. EOD
^ This
Duurrrr?
The solution seems obvious to me.
The only person you have to blame is YOURSELF. Not the hero designer.
K THX BAI.
Oh wait i think you said something else about blink and ww?
Or did you say stun and dust? I can't really remember =/
Troll doesn't have an escape mechanism that renders you unslowable and invisible that doubles as a chasing nuke, nor does he have a pseudo-Blink escape mechanism that also doubles as an offensive AoE slow and nuke. On top of this Madman has the crit that Juggernaut has in DotA. His strength gain is pretty high also. I am feeling a minor nerf or two is in order, though it's true that you can Dust and stun him.
It's when he gets a BKB that people would start crying.
Last edited by _Archangel_; 07-18-2009 at 10:30 PM.
Fact of the matter is. Madman has a lowered str gain and a 17 str base start gain. He has alright lane control, but realistically in a match you're not gonna see someone pick madman to carry.. .Why? Because Madman requires a babysit and 4 of the other teammates are support. In a lane with a better carry, Madman would be crushed. Pestilences instant stun beats Madmans slow. Pestilence reveals Madman's invisibility. Pestilence has more str gain and more starting str overall. Pestilence is good. Madman is not.
Swiftblade it's the same case. Madman slows, Swiftblade spins and the support hero can do nothing to stop the magic immunity as the other babysit in swift's lane freezes madman and probably has wards up (Usually Glacius will be in this lane and Glacius ALWAYS buys wards.) With Swiftblades ult fixed, this renders Madman even less useful.
Zephyr has tornadoes that can farm AND heal him, can outfarm the lane, has a blink, great hp gain. While this hero isn't idealistically a good carry for obvious reasons: he's can still beat madman in a lane.
The moral of this story: If you're getting beat by invisibility+Slow You're bad.
focusing madman means wasting every possible stun to be used on him. What's his teammate going to do? sit there and dps you and disable you for free?
1 stun is not enough, 40% ms, goodbye, dust or not? i dont really care.
NO ONE should ever have blink and windwalk on the same hero, that means moving across half of the map in a matter of seconds.
I think my 7 years of dota experience can tell me when a hero is imbalanced.
(btw blade fury does not have immunity to magic, at least not the aoe ones. so veno can easily slow a blade fury juggernaut in this version. LOL?)
I think madman deserves a nerf or too. the reality of the situation is disable counters any and every hero so using that as a way to counter him is just redundant and stupid. I've played madman many times and it is really easy to farm and kill it really is. let's brake down his skills
Stalk: This skill allows him to get +500% MS, does AoE damage to those he walks by, and renders him invisible. all in all it's weaver's invis. The problem with using dust and wards to coutner is how fast he's moving and how small he is. Even if you do get a stun off, he's blinking away immediatly after.
Barrel roll: This is a blink damage and slow. Used with stalk it can be impossible to get away from him, even with a stun or two thanks to the low cool down on this skill and stalk.
Gash: 36% to do double damage every hit at max level, double damage no matter the level it's the percentage that goes up. it's a good skill on the whole, however, add it to beserk, madman's starting attack speed, and the fact that it gets really hard to get away form him and the syngery is really up there.
Beserk: his bread and butter skill imo, though tbh all of his skills are good. With this not only does he get 80% attack speed but he gets something like 40% movement speed, making him still even ahrder to get away from and survive. pair the attack speed with his crit chance and you have to be rpetty unlucky not to see a bunch of red numbers floating around.
if you did give him a basher he could easily stun lock and if you did somehow get away from stun he has a slow and 500% ms increase invis AoE damage. if you're mad man you're getting abyssal skull, everythign about it mkes him mroe formidable. B-fly makes him invisible to physical heroes, getting hood or BKB and nukers can't touch you either.
What it really comes down to is this: if madman gets BKB you can't get awayf rom him, period. You can't stun him, you and only run, and he's faster with a slow.
is he astral trekker imba? no, but at the moment he needs to be fine tuned and tweaked. The biggest reason is because his escape skills double as chasing skills. I say instead of the blink, give him BH's ult as a normal skill. would up his speed and give him more money. Fitting him perfect still but not making him impossible to get away from as soon as he gets BKB.
Argue all you want that BKB only lasts so many seconds, but the reality is if you're in the same screen as he is when he activates, you're gunna die unless you're whole team is there.
TL;DR here are his skills, biggest problem is escapeing skills are also gangking skills, here's a suggestion for a change, BKB is really good on him.
/thread
Ok, he's hard to gank. But I really don't think he's all that imba.
Imba is what chronos is. He ALSO has a blink/slow, and a bash and evasion, and an aoe freeze. But no one complains about him.
madman is pretty fragile I think, gets hit with a couple aoes and he's already low on health, and when he comes out, it only takes a single nuke to take him out.
Chronos has paper hp, and relatively poor str gain. He also has no reliable way of escaping, like Madman, who has some ****ing ridiculous max ms thing while Chronos just pops away 1000 range or so, still gankable. He needs attack speed to be useful. His AOE stop is difficult to use, as you don't wanna trap the ranged allies. If a Chronos is ganked a lot (which he probably is), he's ****ed, while Madman still contributes slightly more with his little AOE damage.
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