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Yes.
No.
Now Fully Playable!
How to test this new item:
Step 1. Download the item here.
Step 2. Extract the contents into your Heroes of Newerth item directory. A common example would be under "C:\Program Files\Heroes of Newerth\game\resources0.s2z\items\recipes" WinRAR can be used to enter the resources0.s2z directory.
Step 3. Start a Practice game, and use the item spawner to create Item_ChaosBlade.
Step 4. Have fun with it! Note that even though it still has a toggle feature, the final version will probably not and it will retain its special animation. And don't worry, you can still play the game as normal with no problems whatsoever.
Inspired by another relevant thread: Harkon's Blade, its function, and why it fails.
Issues:Current Harkon's Blade
Requires:
Great Arcana - 1675
Acolyte's Staff - 2700
Recipe - 725
Total - 5100
While active, changes attack damage type to Magic at the cost of 100 mana per attack. Attacks also reduce Magic Armor of the target temporarily.
Passive Bonuses:
10 Attack Speed
25 Damage
35 Intelligence
150% Mana Regeneration
Attacks deal Magic damage. Applies Harkon's Blade to the attack target for 3 seconds.
Harkon's Blade Effects:
-5 Magic Armor
1. This is clearly an item designed for a late-game intelligence hero, to give them more relevant attack damage. And yet it completely fails at it. The item costs so much mana to use, that many heroes that want to use it for higher attack damage, simply cannot. A perfect example would be Puppet Master. By the time you have activated two Whiplashes, you will have already spent 1000 mana simply attacking. In practice, the item is strictly worse than Hellflower for this and many other heroes.
2. The item is only semi-playable when used solely to strengthen your nukes. A hero like Wretched Hag or Pyromancer can only use this item effectively by attacking a hero with it a single time before unloading all of their spells on it. While this is not necessarily a bad thing, at this point the item is no different than a Hellflower that does not silence, or an activated Magic Armor debuff, because no hero has enough mana to continually attack with it. The option to toggle it and the Physical-to-Magic attack change is completely pointless when the only way you can use the item effectively is as a one time debuff.
3. Great Arcana is an overused item. It's in four different recipes (and it's in one of those three times) and is also a recipe item itself. The mana regeneration, while nice, is much less relevant at the point of the game that you will have this item. Mana regeneration is not really something a caster-carry really is looking for. This item can easily be replaced by another underused item that has more synergy with the effects of Harkon's Blade.
Changes:Proposed Harkon's Blade
Requires:
Slayer - 2400
Acolyte's Staff - 2700
Recipe - Auto
Total - 5100
Changes attack damage type from Physical to Magic. Attacks also reduce Magic Armor of the target temporarily.
Passive Bonuses:
40 Damage
35 Intelligence
Attacks deal Magic damage. Applies Harkon's Blade to the attack target for 5 seconds, adding one charge. Maximum of 8 charges per target.
Harkon's Blade Effects:
-1 Magic Armor per charge
1. Harkon's Blade no longer costs 100 mana to activate. The new item is not toggle-able. You will do Magic damage whenever you attack, and will only do physical attacks against magic immune targets.
2. Because of this large buff, Harkon's Blade now reduces Magic Armor over several hits, rather than all at once. It can potentially reduce your target's Magic Armor by 8 after many attacks, which is the same amount of reduction as a Level 4 Life Void on a single hero. This change will promote using Harkon's Blade to buff your regular attacks in addition to strengthening your offensive spells to finish the target off! No more hitting a hero once just to get the debuff active. Now you can actually put the Physical-to-Magic change to good use.
3. It is now much simpler. It no longer toggles. It no longer drains mana. It now gives an even larger damage bonus, encouraging the use of a hero's regular attack. Although a little harder to build now, it is still a balanced item that is much more versatile and playable than the current Harkon's Blade. It is still very unique (the core of the item philosophy remains unchanged) and now fills a new niche that is not covered by Hellflower. The item is now much more focused as a carry-caster item and has increased synergy with many more intelligence heroes; such as Nymphora and Puppet Master.
Please vote on concept! Numbers can be discussed, tested, and changed in this thread and the beta.
Last edited by Khaos`; 10-13-2009 at 10:25 PM.
like it. as i buyed harkons blade once, i thought it would be great. but it wasnt that good and not worth that money imo. its totally unusuable for melee heroes. the new idea is verry freidnly to melee heroes, who also need some mana. they can now assist their caster with lowering the magic armor of enemys. could be also a good item when the enemy has verry high physical armor but low magic.
like it.
I much prefer your version of Harkon's Blade, no need for explaining its all been done in your much thought out post. T-Up.
manacost is the major drawback about harkon blade, removing it will be too overpowered for puppetmaster, because puppet's damage issue. passively doing magic damage without any drawback is overpowered since puppet needs it's mana to disable and using mana to activate harkon blade results puppet needs to regen it's mana for another gank.
if this harkon blade gets impletemented, puppet with harkon and other item simply means ANNILATION for opponent team, because puppet's mana is unlimited, and only being use to disable you to prevent you to run away, and simply just attack to kill you.
Have you actually ever played Puppet Master with Harkon's Blade before? This is a serious question. I'm guessing you have not. If you don't have Hellflower for the silence, good luck trying to immobilize anyone and trying to "annihilate" them when they can still cast all of their spells on you.Originally Posted by NekoMaO
Yes, removing the mana cost is a huge buff, but as I said, changing how the Magic Armor debuff is applied balances it out nicely and makes the item better at what it's trying to do.
Last edited by Khaos`; 10-13-2009 at 11:56 PM.
Current Suggestions:
[Item] Smoke Screen *Now Playable in Practice Mode*
[Remake] Harkon's Blade *Now Playable in Practice Mode*
[Remake] Ghost Marchers, Steamboots, and Plated Greaves
I've played it before, but if you go for pure attack/speed build, you still needs to back off for a while to regenerate mana.
Level 25 puppet master sure has some decent mana regen along with some powerful item. And btw, i mean whole team gank, with a good team. You could definately "annihilate" entire opponent team with good teammate.
Magic attack is powerful, because there aren't many item granting magic armor or many ways to counter against it. The only 2 way is to get Magic Armor item and increase Max HP item.
heroes only has 25% reduction on magic attack, and when your level keeps getting higher and higher, your magic armor resistance doesn't increase. only your Armor increase.
That's what make magic attack so powerful.
Removing Mana cost is One of the major issue for most hero. Take a look at soul reaper and other int hero, their mana pool is limited and getting harkon blade and other decent item. they are late game int killer, but at the cost of limited mana pool.
As you cast any skill, you still needed to conserve enough mana to ultimate, and with harkon blade, it grants you powerful attack, and quickly lower enemy HP to half for ultimate. But the major drawback is, you must take a careful look to not drain all your mana for ultimate.
But what if mana cost is removed? you got huge mana pool ready for constant ganking.
Mana is always full, Yes we all know in late games, mana is always full because of powerful items. but what about mid game?
T-up for the new item components and the - magic armor gaining per hit. I don't like that it costs no mana though, it should still cost mana(how much is another issue) or it's too good(since it adds more damage as well now) since you can use it too much at once earlier in the game.
Its a powerful modifier, I would chose it over shieldbasher for most heroes.
There's only one problem with your suggestion; the lack of toggling. I understand that the charges come slowly but it turns all your normal attacks into magic damage. There are a few problems with this.
1st: Magic Immune Heroes
2nd: Heroes with High Magic Armor - Arachna would totally rape you.
3rd: Agaisnt heroes without any way to counter this other than magic armor; it is a much better way to deal damage because magic armor does not scale; this being said a tank lategame normally has 60%+ physical damage reduction while his magic armor can never go above 48ish. This item would prove way too strong agaisnt shieldbreaker.
I like the charge idea; but the toggle needs to stay; I also like the base stats more.
Waiting to vote.
wow cool!
супер мне нра)
Needs toggle then t-up
T-UP
The -8 armor is a bit much, imo. T-up for concept.
I like the suggested change, however, I would keep the item usage. No reason to change it to slayer in my mind.
[F4F]
Contest Heroes:
Arcane Warrior | The Unknown
Recipe Items:
Enfeebler | Possessed Scimitar
Basic Items:
Glove of Astral Absorption | Spike Shield
The manacost needs to be there. It would be WAY too OP if it didn't have initial cost to use. imo i think it already is OP, I ono how you played PM but the manacost isn't that much of a big deal. This item is a LATE game item, which requires you to farm other managiven items before you farm for this one.
Points 1 and 2: Both very valid, and both are very good reasons as to why you may want to build a Shieldbreaker instead of Harkon's Blade. Like most well designed items, this one has it's strength's and weaknesses, and it is not always the best option to buy it.
Point 3: Again, good point, but in the original post I linked to an interesting and relevant thread. Basically it explains that the current Harkon's Blade costs literally 12 times more than the item that completely negates it, Mystic Vestments. With that on your target you're spending a whopping 100 mana per attack for almost little reduction in attack damage.
The new Harkon's Blade can still be countered with the item, but it is much less effective at doing so.
Awesome. I know that minus 8 sounds like a lot, but it's really not that much because you still need to hit your target 8 times in a row for the full effect. If they avoid you or chain stun you for a few seconds, your Magic Armor will instantly go back to 5. But yeah, it can always be changed.
I can't say I agree with you. Harkon's Blade is far from OP. The problem is that at 5100 gold this can't be an item you go for after you get your core item. Most intelligence heroes can only go for Totem of Kuldra after their core item. Another problem is that this item is this item is super weak on almost every hero as it is currently. Pyromancer would rather get Portal Key first and then Totem afterward. Puppet Master is only one of fifty-three heroes right now, and usually the game ends before he can even buy the item after Hellflower.
The design wants int-carries to use this item, and most carry-int heroes have high attack speed. This is really anti-synergy with the current Harkon's Blade. But I can see how this currently overlaps a bit too much with Shieldbreaker.
I would rather change the proposed version to include a "costs X mana per second while toggled on" than to tack on a mana cost for every single attack. This would also have the added benefit of keeping Shieldbreaker better for low-mana agility heroes like Madman and the like, but making Harkon's Blade better for intelligence heroes.
What do people think about this?
Last edited by Khaos`; 10-14-2009 at 04:46 PM.
Current Suggestions:
[Item] Smoke Screen *Now Playable in Practice Mode*
[Remake] Harkon's Blade *Now Playable in Practice Mode*
[Remake] Ghost Marchers, Steamboots, and Plated Greaves
Wont this be focusing on to much for the use of agi's. the 40 damage, will now make them want to get it now. They don't need more buffs?
The only thing I like about this idea are the charges.
I like the current item but with the charges instead of mana usage
Leader of Clan Scrim
Needs toggle AND the charges needs to be nerfed. 8 charges is too many. 5 is more balanced.
I'm just picturing a Scout with Harkons and Charged Hammer. GG.
What about slither synergy? This forces me, after ulting, to stay and attack each enemy at least 5 times in order to create the same effect as old harkon. Also, getting harkon means less survivability for slither so sticking around for extended periods of time in team fights isn't the best option.
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