Sorry, I'm with cloth on this one.
Steamboots are the best pick for utility pre and post boots patch. NH requires quick survivability, and the good thing about steamboots is that it is togglable, unless they massively nerf the stat boost, its utility will always remain superior. Similarly to the majority of agi carries (with the exception of heroes like swiftblade who can use the MS boost to significant effect).
Early game HP which can be changed into late game IAS+dmg+armor is simply too good to pass up. Would you rather have 4 more damage and slightly more MS with an ability to boost MS w/ reveal, or able to toggle for more hp (even possibly more mp, toggle to int, smoke, toggleback to str/agi), and more agility/IAS/armor all in one? You are neglecting the other bonuses steamboots offer. It isn't flat out damage you are looking for, nor flat out speed (it is extremely rare you are required to chase heroes after clashes, and it you do so it will hardly make up for your decreased performance DURING a clash; the rarity of requiring blink AND enhanced MS to chase is high) but what could possibly enhance NH's performance as a teammate in a clash. I would neglect most cases of "running away" with better ms as his blink provides more than enough of an escape option, ontop of the togglable str you have on steamboots.
Certain other items (ie. Abyssal skull) in your recommended list are really barely viable on him. The guide is long, but it's picking quality over quantity (not saying it's all bad, there are decent strategy bits).
Don't call me a troll. This is constructive criticism. Unsure as to why I am bothered to post but I am sad that a lot of your guide is misguidance.
Imo just leave it open to anything the readers want. I mean, if you want to go with Plated Greaves then by all means go for it. Skill and execution beats any equipment. I've been in far too many games where skill and experience beats the crap out of someone who is heavily farmed or what not.
Yes A Cloth's arguments are valid, but coming from someone of his level, going with his advice is what I would call misguidance. I'm not stereotyping or whatever but pre 1700-1800, you're better off with that damage boost cause no one really feels the extra stat boost. +10 strength is too menial against a team who doesn't even know what burst damaging is. On the other hand, no one really gets NH at high tier games because of his lack of lane presence. Even when farmed NH sucks **** against true carries such as Chronos or Zephyr. I'd say this guide is more for low tier games, 1500-1700 to be exact. It's a good guide and in my opinion should go premium, only problem is that people are too obsessed about what boot to get. Get a pair of Nike's ffs.
I agree with the poster above, I should get a pair of Chuck Taylor's on Night Hound next time I play with him.
You clearly did not read my post. The issue is not solely against the choice of boots.
If you say you can recommend plated greaves on chronos and that works in 80% of the 1500 games, does that mean it's premium worthy? Why don't we premium getting runed axe on deadwood then? That works in 1500-1700 games, too.
I'm not going to debate in a thread, if you like, post it in the strategy section or PM me. Thanks.
I'm updating the guide, and as I've said there are ways to build NH starting with Steamboots and ways to build him starting with Ghost Marchers.
I know where you're coming from, and if going Steam you get Nullfire, but to succesfully pull that off not just in pub game, but in a pro game, you need exceptional farm either thorugh an extraordinary amount of ganks from your team like phe'v or lots of freefarm time like Overpow.
Ganking phases in pro games seem to last longer than even in high skilled pubs (and bashing pubs over a certain PSR is silly). I find, and this is expirience talking, that going for early, reliable damage that is dealt even upfront with GM and skipping Nullfire for frostburn (more than enough sirvivability) is really exceptionaly efficcent, as you really don't need 2 ganking items.
The pro's who played those matches were set in DoTA ways (the commentators even highlights this, and I come from years of dota Riki play so i know cukie cutter when I see it), and since they had no NH expirience to draw upon they did the DoTA routine. And it worked, but Frostburn is not Sange and Yasha, it is so much better that skipping Nullfire is entirely possible and not only that but it gets you a Zephyr like advantage as you can gank just as good with frostburn channelling all that money into a Dancing Blade, and then you get REDICULOUS. (Zephyr like advantage in that he farms better items faster than other heroes, you farm the same items but you get more bang for your buck effectivly giving you virtual farm advantage)
I know how all this must sound like, but the point is not to teach pubbies wrong stuff, this might be a weird case of pubbies having an upper hand on the pro's as the pro's are taking an unneccessary step by doing the tried and true DoTA routine, instead of a brand new HoN routine.
In short - yes, you can go for Steamboots, farm up Null Talismans to compensate for their lack of damage and then farm Nullfire Blade and then Farm Frostburn - IF YOU'RE ONE OF THE BEST FARMERS IN THE WORLD. But, to be a good, helpfull, successfull NH you can take advantage of the wonderfull Yasha remake and require significantly less farm to be effective overall. A pubbie can do it and win his pub happy with frostburn, a pro could do it and finish his finals raping with butterfly.
If you want early survivability, buy the STR +6 component for the Firebrand ahead of time, buy a bracer, whatever, but getting that 24 damage when you need it most regardless of backstab and facing for just 1500 is invaluable for a hero that hes 2-3 escape mechs from basicaly the get go but sucky damage and no harrasing power. why is this so hard to give a shot?
I will condense and clarify all this in the update of the guide.
And also, this guide isn't "premium worthy". This guide isn't stickied. It is at the top of the page in views and replys and most people that read it are happy about what they've learned, eve nthough I'm still polishing and rewriting. And playtesting it, and my friends are playtesting it. Nobody is forcing you to follow it. Relax. And besides, I've never seen it fail when it was used against me, and have been severly thrashed by it many times, while there was very few other NH builds that I ever lost to. More testing went into this guide then probably any hero that S2 released. And it still isn't ready.
Last edited by Lujo; 04-12-2010 at 06:38 AM.
just noticed a fun fact about NH.
if you jungle with him and use SB on a creep camp, they turn their back on you and stand still xD
EDIT: Lol, a friend of mine and a playtester of the guide, just told me that he did it all the time but never told me because he figured i knew allready and that he thought it was allready in the guide lol, just goest to show that there's allways something new to learn.
Last edited by Lujo; 04-13-2010 at 03:33 AM.
Hah, talk about being humble. Meh, I'm over about NH's boots. Whatever works is fine.And also, this guide isn't "premium worthy".
Your guide is like a discourse of a scientific issue. Bravo!
Just some things: Nullfire is a must because Purge not only slows enemies,it REMOVES DEBUFFS from you or allies-say ulti and also removes buffs from enemies like Stone Hide or even better :jera: Sol's Blessing which shuts down your DPS for it's duration-and it's pretty enough time to take you out. And like other guys said,helps team's ganking.You should always consider taking it,much more when there isn't any other possible Nullfire carrier on the team-then you MUST MUST take it. And finally,it also works with geometer's,images burn mana-and burning mana is never bad.
And I don't believe that Wh.Helm is inferior than abyssal's.On the contrary,helps out more.First and most important,you can dominate a creep.How many people take Helm and completely ignore it's function.You can get a strong creep to have a disable-minotaur,catman champion or creeps that help the team a lot:Vagabond Leader's hp regen aura and Wolf's command aura. Besides domination,it gives hp regen(from helm of the victim component).So,you have both hp regen and lifesteal in one item.Say you leave a team clash/gank either with kill(s) or have escaped barely. You can go to the jungle to farm and get hp back-domination helps again here.And if you're lucky,you can get a significant amount or full hp back and return to the fight,provided your allies are still holding(which isn't amazing to happen) and turn it into victory for your team
That's what i have to say,but again,excellent guide
I'd say get one of those healing ****ers and heal yourself. Peace.
is it worth saying that savage mace allows true strike even when they r in smoke, and the fact is that magic imunity from items will work after entering the smoke because the silence doesnt affect item related skils
p.s. i'm a new player, i've been playing HoN for like a month or so
You might want to include 1:Void Talisman and 2:TP stones as an Arachna counter. Also, Barbed Armor is effective. I'm not exactly sure why, some people say it's because Arachna is squishy, others say there's a bug which insta-kills the spider.
In addition, you're right about Legionnaire, especially in pub games where you don't have a babysitter. I remember my Legionnaire lanecut with Accursed in a Nighthound-Madman lane. Ah, fun times (5 ragequits, 10m 30s win).
It's spelt Chronos. C-H-R-O-N-O-S. YOU DO NOT SPELL IT CHORNOS OR CRONOS, IT'S CHRONOS. ARE YOU RETARDED?
Vote Up for the "TOO BAD IT'S ME 0.1% CHANCE FOR 7X MULTICAST LOLOLOL" suggestion!
Annoyed at Zephyr/Warbeast? Play games with him, click on the scout.
Quick question, whenever you use mana battery/power supply does it reveal you for a bit after you use it?