Mineral [R4R]

**[Demi]Forest_Elf** · 07-20-2011, 07:33 AM

Its just a concept of a hero, and I want you to assess it.
If I get at least some positive comments, ill continue developing this one.

Dream (not updated yet): http://dream.heroesofnewerth.com/her...st_Elf/Mineral

Any comments are welcome.

__________________________________________________

Mineral

---------------------

Base characteristics

Stats

Speed: 290
Attack Range: 128

Str: 22 + 2.50
Agi: 10 + 0.90
Int: 19 + 2.30

Damage: 52-68
Base Attack Cooldown: 1.7 (0.30 Damage Point, 0.50 Attack Backswing).

Aligment: Hellbourne

Role

Primary Role: Ganker.
Secondary Role: Initiator.

Mineral's first and second skills allows him to deal quite big alpha damage, while inflicting a slow and some area with additional slow. He may be as good in ganking as Pebbles is, however he deals less damage to a single target.
Also he has some crowd control skills - huge AoE slow that may mess up enemies plans and his ulti. His unique ultimate can be used either as a disable or like a shield to prevent enemies from going straight on.

Visual

Mineral is a big golem made of colorfull crystals. May looks somewhat alike Golden Pebbles, but with more sharp edges and less amount of crystals, his size is about the same like Pebbles' ultimate level 1.

This is a picture i found using Google (dont know who the author is), and i think this is what Mineral should look like:

---------------------

Abilities

Jewel Shard

Ability Type: Target - Ground.
Type: Magical.
Target: Non-mechanical enemy/neutral units.
Manacost: 55.
Range: 750.
Projectile Radius: 75.
Projectile Speed: 1000.

Visual: Mineral tears off a sharp jewel shard from his body and throws its. Shard size depends on the amount of charges.

On use consumes all charges and deals 30 magic damage per charge on impact. For every 4 charges can penetrate additional target. Manacost increased by 5 and projectile radius by 2 for each charge used.
Gives one charge every second, up to 3/6/9/12 charges.
Gives 200 day/night vision while in flight.

Other skills grant some charges upon being activated (read other skills description).

Sapphire Outburst

Ability Type: Self Position.
Type: Magical.
Target: Non-mechanical enemy/neutral units.
Manacost: 100/125/150/175.
Radius: 300/350/400/450.
Cooldown: 22 seconds.
Gadget Radius: 30.

Visual: Mineral hits the ground with both his hands. Lots of sapphire spikes burst out of earth around Mineral, then they either crumble or go back into earth. Small sapphire crystals remain all over the affected area.

Deals 80/135/190/245 magic damage to all enemy units and applies Impaled for 3 seconds. Also leaves small sapphire spikes on ground over affected area, that slow enemy units by 10/15/20/25% for 1 second by walking over them and deal 5/10/15/20 magic damge (they crumble once those spikes are stepped on or after 6 seconds).

Impaled effect:
20% movement speed slow.

Grants 1/2/3/4 charges to Jewel Shard upon activation.

Ruby Spikes

Ability type: Target - Self.
Type: Magical.
Target: Enemy/neutral units.
Manacost: 80/90/100/110.
Range: 200.
Cooldown: 17 second.
Cast Time: 0.75 second.

Visual: Mineral rapidly gets covered with sharp ruby spikes.

All enemies in the radius take 60/100/140/180 physical damage. Applies Ruby Armor to self for 12 seconds.

Ruby Armor effect:
Absorbs 35%/40%/45%/50% of any incoming damage up to 80/130/180/220. Also reflects any melee damage absorbed.

Grants 1/2/3/4 charges to Jewel Shard upon activation.

Ult: Diamond Cage

Ability Type: Target - Ground.
Type: Superior Magic.
Manacost: 150/200/250.
Range: 500.
Radius: 300.
Cooldown: 90 seconds.

Visual: Mineral raises his hand and clinches his fist. A brilliant shaped semi-sphere appears.

Raises a barrier with 600/800/1100 hp around the target location for 6/8/10 seconds. Noone can leave or enter the barrier, as well as interfe with what happens inside.

Note 1: Anyone from outside trying to damage anyone inside damages barrier instead. The same applies for the ones inside.
Note 2: Barrier has 40% magic armor and 10% physical armor.
Note 3: You cant blink out or in the barrier.

Grants 2/4/6 charges to Jewel Shard upon activation.

---------------------

Changelog

22.11.2011

Ruby Spikes now deal physical damage instead of magical.

12.11.2011

Fixed role desription a bit.
Renamed Ruby Stake to Jewel Shard.
Tweaked Jewel Shard a bit - now other skills grant some charges for Jewel Shard upon activation.
Renamed Sapphire Spikes to Sapphire Outburst.
Increased Sapphire Outburst cooldown by 2 to 22 seconds.
Removed Jewel Wall (old skill). Now third skill is Ruby Spikes.
Increased Diamond Cage cooldown by 30 at all levels from 60 to 90 seconds.
Added 100 additional hp to Diamond Cage at third level.

25.08.2011

Added a picture to Visual.

Older:

**[OhN]HawkeyeBR** · 07-20-2011, 02:50 PM

First skill seems fine, but I didn't understood very well. If you target ground, the skill will damage in an AoE, right? If it is, how bigger is the AoE? If you target on a unit, it damages only it, or in an AoE around it?

Second skill seems fine.

Third skill, I didn't got it. Why would you wan't to trap your own allies, or even enemies, making them invulnerable? Allies can do nothing in this state. It can realy mess up clashes. Comparing to Glacius Imprisionment, the skill is kinda bad, since in Imprisionment, you can still cast spells and is not for so long like yours (4 seconds). You might question about Succ Mesmerize, but its not a skill for saving allies. You only cast it on allies when you either missclick or want some seconds so your team can catch up and help to save the ally. Using your skill against enemies is bad too, cause your team can't damage them, and has no synergy with your other skills, since you mostly do burst damage. I don't think its a good idea to stagnate a battle clash.

Ult, I didn't got it too. I had an idea like that for a hero, but dunno if it would work. Your skill creates a barrier while you press R and it is raised following the mouse, while you channel, right? You said that it creates random jewels and each type have different properties, but you don't mention how it works. If you have 80 charges, drained every 0.05 sec, each jewel have 20 radius, you drain about 20 charges per second, but the wall will only grow ahead if the new jewel don't overlap the older one (otherwise the last jewel crumbles). It means that after the 80 charges get drained, you will have a ~80 lenght wall, wich is prety retarded and useless. The damage is prety op too, since in 4 seconds, you can use all your charges dealing 15 damage per charge, multiplied by 80 charges, making a total of 1200 damage over 4 seconds under the enemy.
I might got it wrong, but if not, you might have to change some numbers.

The overall concept is cool, but you can explore it better with some changes. I just don't think third and fourth skills fits the skillset at all.

**[Demi]Forest_Elf** · 07-20-2011, 09:00 PM

Originally Posted by HawkeyeBR

First skill seems fine, but I didn't understood very well. If you target ground, the skill will damage in an AoE, right? If it is, how bigger is the AoE? If you target on a unit, it damages only it, or in an AoE around it?

Removed Target - Enemy. At first i thought of this skill being a double type (like behe's stun), but now i removed it.

That one is a semi-skillshot goes in a line and may damage up to three enemies if charged.

Third skill, I didn't got it. Why would you wan't to trap your own allies, or even enemies, making them invulnerable? Allies can do nothing in this state. It can realy mess up clashes. Comparing to Glacius Imprisionment, the skill is kinda bad, since in Imprisionment, you can still cast spells and is not for so long like yours (4 seconds). You might question about Succ Mesmerize, but its not a skill for saving allies. You only cast it on allies when you either missclick or want some seconds so your team can catch up and help to save the ally. Using your skill against enemies is bad too, cause your team can't damage them, and has no synergy with your other skills, since you mostly do burst damage. I don't think its a good idea to stagnate a battle clash.

This skill gives you various ways to use it. This can be used as a good control skill, you can save your allies, halt your enemies to get your skills up, etc. However this skill has a draw back - you can by mistake use it on your allies trapping them, save your enemies. This skill only allows you to control the flow of battle - its not a stun when you can actuallly kill the poor ones.

Ult, I didn't got it too. I had an idea like that for a hero, but dunno if it would work. Your skill creates a barrier while you press R and it is raised following the mouse, while you channel, right? You said that it creates random jewels and each type have different properties, but you don't mention how it works. If you have 80 charges, drained every 0.05 sec, each jewel have 20 radius, you drain about 20 charges per second, but the wall will only grow ahead if the new jewel don't overlap the older one (otherwise the last jewel crumbles). It means that after the 80 charges get drained, you will have a ~80 lenght wall, wich is prety retarded and useless. The damage is prety op too, since in 4 seconds, you can use all your charges dealing 15 damage per charge, multiplied by 80 charges, making a total of 1200 damage over 4 seconds under the enemy.
I might got it wrong, but if not, you might have to change some numbers.

This skill allows you to draw a wall of up to 800/1200/1600 length. New crystal (with random property) appears next to the last one in the direction to your mouse. So in one second up to 20 jewels may appear.
Ye, noticed that damage being too high too (lowered it a bit, but it may still be a bit too high).
The main use of this skill is to restrain enemy movements not damage them. However it can be used as a damage spell - you have to channel it for the whole duration, being immobile. And you damage only one enemy while not "growing" at all (there will be some crystal, but not that much of them).
Due to its low cooldown this skill may be used in various ways too.

As this hero is my "main" one, id like to hear more criticism.

**[OhN]HawkeyeBR** · 07-21-2011, 09:37 AM

Originally Posted by Forest_Elf

Removed Target - Enemy. At first i thought of this skill being a double type (like behe's stun), but now i removed it.

That one is a semi-skillshot goes in a line and may damage up to three enemies if charged.

You might want to add a description of how is the visual of the skill, so we can understand better how it works. I guess it's a sharp ruby shard thrown in a straight line, that pierces targets, right?

This skill gives you various ways to use it. This can be used as a good control skill, you can save your allies, halt your enemies to get your skills up, etc. However this skill has a draw back - you can by mistake use it on your allies trapping them, save your enemies. This skill only allows you to control the flow of battle - its not a stun when you can actuallly kill the poor ones.

But think about it, you will most probably screwing up the battles than helping. Mesmerize at least can be canceled by using spells on the target affected. Your skill has no way out, you are useless for full 4 seconds. Many things can happen in 4 seconds of fight. You could make something that synergyze better with your other 3 skills. Could be like a AoE crystal prison that no one can enter or leave (like mummy wall, but you can't blink out). You can't affect people inside it, but the ones inside it can affect each other. This way you can isolate enemies, allies or both, turning a 3x2 battle in a 2x1 for exemple. The prison can be destroyed. Just an idea that I think will fit more in your concept.

This skill allows you to draw a wall of up to 800/1200/1600 length. New crystal (with random property) appears next to the last one in the direction to your mouse. So in one second up to 20 jewels may appear.
Ye, noticed that damage being too high too (lowered it a bit, but it may still be a bit too high).
The main use of this skill is to restrain enemy movements not damage them. However it can be used as a damage spell - you have to channel it for the whole duration, being immobile. And you damage only one enemy while not "growing" at all (there will be some crystal, but not that much of them).
Due to its low cooldown this skill may be used in various ways too.

I made the calculations, and came up with the 1600 length wall, but by the mechanics, it's not what is going to happen, since every time a charge go off, it will replace the last crystal under it, unless you make the wall grow up faster, but will not work either. My idea is take off the damage, make it only for blocking and flow control purposes, and make the crystals grow in the direction of the mouse WITHOUT breaking the last one, if its under the new one. This way you will make a working solid 1600 length wall. If you realy want the damage, you can make every crystal deal 20 dps in an 50 AoE around it, so you can trap people inside, dealing damage, and can use it along with my suggestion for third skill. They can't get out unless they break the prision, and will keep getting damage from the wall.

**[Demi]Forest_Elf** · 07-21-2011, 01:07 PM

Originally Posted by HawkeyeBR

You might want to add a description of how is the visual of the skill, so we can understand better how it works. I guess it's a sharp ruby shard thrown in a straight line, that pierces targets, right?

Ye, you are right.
Updated template - added Visual to each skill and hero itsself.

But think about it, you will most probably screwing up the battles than helping. Mesmerize at least can be canceled by using spells on the target affected. Your skill has no way out, you are useless for full 4 seconds. Many things can happen in 4 seconds of fight. You could make something that synergyze better with your other 3 skills. Could be like a AoE crystal prison that no one can enter or leave (like mummy wall, but you can't blink out). You can't affect people inside it, but the ones inside it can affect each other. This way you can isolate enemies, allies or both, turning a 3x2 battle in a 2x1 for exemple. The prison can be destroyed. Just an idea that I think will fit more in your concept.

That's a great idea, thank you.
Ill think about this (and most probably rework my skill a bit).

I made the calculations, and came up with the 1600 length wall, but by the mechanics, it's not what is going to happen, since every time a charge go off, it will replace the last crystal under it, unless you make the wall grow up faster, but will not work either. My idea is take off the damage, make it only for blocking and flow control purposes, and make the crystals grow in the direction of the mouse WITHOUT breaking the last one, if its under the new one. This way you will make a working solid 1600 length wall. If you realy want the damage, you can make every crystal deal 20 dps in an 50 AoE around it, so you can trap people inside, dealing damage, and can use it along with my suggestion for third skill. They can't get out unless they break the prision, and will keep getting damage from the wall.

The next crystal (each crystal is 20 units in diameter) appears 20 units away from the center of the last one. This way they dont intersect. Thi way you get a wall of up to 400 units per second. However, if your mouse stays in one point for some time - crystals will overlap and the older one has to crumble.

I'm also still thinking about reworking the damage each crystal does (removing it or replacing it with something else).
And i dont think that 20 dps in 50 AoE is an option.

Thanks for some good ideas - ill try to make some updates today.

EDOT:
Your Diamod Cage idea is somewhat alike Pharaoh's, so it should not be superior to it - but i like the idea nevertheles.

**[OhN]HawkeyeBR** · 07-21-2011, 01:35 PM

Originally Posted by Forest_Elf

The next crystal (each crystal is 20 units in diameter) appears 20 units away from the center of the last one. This way they dont intersect. Thi way you get a wall of up to 400 units per second. However, if your mouse stays in one point for some time - crystals will overlap and the older one has to crumble.

If someone can code that, its not a bad idea at all, just need some adjusts.

Your Diamod Cage idea is somewhat alike Pharaoh's, so it should not be superior to it - but i like the idea nevertheles.

It won't be supperior to Pharaoh's Wall. You can destroy the cage with some attacks, its just a matter of knowing how to deal with it.

**[Demi]Forest_Elf** · 07-26-2011, 08:20 AM

Diamond Cage rework.

Old one:

As Hawkeye noticed, the old concept for this skill will stagnate the whole battle in 95% of cases.

This is a new idea (also thanks to Hawkeye):

Diamond Cage

Ability Type: Target - Ground.
Type: Magical.
Manacost: 100/120/140/160.
Range: 450.
Radius: 200.
Cooldown: 25 seconds.

Visual: Mineral raises his hand and clinches his fist. A brilliant shaped semi-sphere appears.

Raises a barrier with 200/300/400/500 hp around the target location for 2/3/4/5 seconds. Noone can leave or enter the barrier, as well as interfe in what happens inside.

Note 1: Anyone from outside trying to damage anyone inside damages barrier instead. The same applies for the ones inside.
Note 2: Barrier has 50% magic armor.
Note 3: You cant blink out or in the barrier.

Wonder if this is worth the change (however i do like this skill).

I'd like to see more reviews =)

Thanks ahed for any help.

**[Demi]Forest_Elf** · 07-26-2011, 08:23 AM

Originally Posted by HawkeyeBR

If someone can code that, its not a bad idea at all, just need some adjusts.

Well, im not that bad at coding HoN mods/heroes (though it sucks hard due to their lack of manuals and poor language). But at the moment (as far as i know) there is no way to implement this ulti the way it is. Maybe you can emulate something via toggle skill and a mod that casts a skill every 1/10 or 1/20 of the second, but in wont be the same.

So at the moment im developing this concept and looking for some ways to code it.

**[IaF]Skyve** · 07-26-2011, 10:05 AM

The Ruby part seems a bit too strong for an AoE nuke.
If you compare it to Aluna's nuke, which deals 350 damage, but reduces in damage by 10% for each unit it hits, while your ability deals 360 damage (at least every 12 seconds), but deals that much damage to all units it hits.
Although, I just noticed, you only get to hit 3 targets, so I guess it would be fine still.

How long does the remaining AoE slow effect on the ground last after you use your second skill (as in, how long will the crystals lie around)? Also, the mana cost seems to be too high for an int hero that doesn't really gain too much int per level.

Does the third skill also effect yourself? Seems a bit impractical in most situations IMO, not necessarily bad, just really difficult to use. Also, why not just "stun" + reveal, or did you leave out "perplexed" on purpose?

For the ultimate, I guess you "draw" a wall on the ground? I don't really get the charges on the ultimate, but I assume it's supposed to determine how many crystals you can place? Also, if you have 80 charges and get one every 15 seconds, it would take you 1200 seconds to regain all charges. It also seems like your ability can deal up to 200 dps to a single target.

**Sentura** · 07-26-2011, 10:10 AM

i'm just gonna post here continuing from our discussion on the dream page.

basically you want people to draw the wall, but i'm seriously thinking it's going to be hard for a player to draw a wall, no matter what advantages you may gain from it in the game. this is the major problem with the skill, because you can get a variety of player problems in game because of your new targetting system. some are ingame, such as the player getting stunned, but some are out of game; what will happen if hte player doesn't hold down the mouse button? vector targeting as it is only works when holding and dragging the cursor in a specific direction.

what more is, that with something like and aoe effect, the player can gain pretty much the same effect, without having to go out of the way to create a new targeting system which will be tedious to use. one of gauntlet's first iterations had his grapple going around corners, effectively making it an angled hook. but s2 removed this system as it was simply too hard to perform for players, and too buggy.

personally the skill i would remake the ulti into would be something like

this skill would be able to both damage and separate enemies during a fight, making their only chance to stay together to either destroy the wall (and take the damage), or wait out the duration. the damage is not overpowering, because it is limited to a circle with 150 units in diameter. each crystal will hit the next crystal, creating a domino effect, but it would be very hard if not impossible to take all the damage at once.

**[OhN]HawkeyeBR** · 07-26-2011, 10:32 AM

Now third skill is fine, but I think it should be Superior Magic, cause I can't immagine a hero with magic immunity not getting trapped by it.

The problem right now is the ultimate, that I still think it won't work, but the remake sugested by Sentura won't work either, since your last changes on Diamond Cage.

**[Demi]Forest_Elf** · 07-26-2011, 01:29 PM

Text in bold italic is for everyone, as it contains some changes i want to apply to this hero.

--------------------------------------

@Skyve

Originally Posted by Skyve

The Ruby part seems a bit too strong for an AoE nuke.
If you compare it to Aluna's nuke, which deals 350 damage, but reduces in damage by 10% for each unit it hits, while your ability deals 360 damage (at least every 12 seconds), but deals that much damage to all units it hits.
Although, I just noticed, you only get to hit 3 targets, so I guess it would be fine still.

It hits up to 4 targets (or at least should =) ), and the range is twice as small.

How long does the remaining AoE slow effect on the ground last after you use your second skill (as in, how long will the crystals lie around)? Also, the mana cost seems to be too high for an int hero that doesn't really gain too much int per level.

That's not really an AoE slow. Those crystals stay for 6 seconds or until stepped upon. So basically for those hit by this skill you get a 45% slow, and those who step in afterwards - 15%.

I'll lower the manacost to about 155 at max level, and maybe make the slow effect longer by 1 second up to 4. Do you think this will be fine?

Does the third skill also effect yourself? Seems a bit impractical in most situations IMO, not necessarily bad, just really difficult to use. Also, why not just "stun" + reveal, or did you leave out "perplexed" on purpose?

Third skill updated - see the reworked one.

It affected everyone including yourself and allies. And yes, it WAS difficult to use, but it might have been used in a variety of ways.
About 'stun'+reveal: this will not allow you to save your allies sometimes (if used properly).

For the ultimate, I guess you "draw" a wall on the ground? I don't really get the charges on the ultimate, but I assume it's supposed to determine how many crystals you can place? Also, if you have 80 charges and get one every 15 seconds, it would take you 1200 seconds to regain all charges. It also seems like your ability can deal up to 200 dps to a single target.

Yes, charge per crystal placed. Timers on each charge are separate (like on zeph's cyclones).

And yes again - the damage is still under question (if to leave it as is or to remove, or do something else). This skill may be used as another damage source, but Mineral is vurnerable while using it. This might give him damage output on par with pyro/pebbles/ws, but this will take him some time and Mineral does not have a single true disable (only a slow), so that might be fine. I'd appretiate if you comment more about this.

--------------------------------------

@Sentura

Originally Posted by Sentura

one of gauntlet's first iterations had his grapple going around corners, effectively making it an angled hook. but s2 removed this system as it was simply too hard to perform for players, and too buggy.

Yes, i know about gauntlet, as i've been in hon since early beta (just didnt prepurchase it and i do regret it now =( ) - just check my uid on forum.

However the skills are different, and this might work for this one.

basically you want people to draw the wall, but i'm seriously thinking it's going to be hard for a player to draw a wall, no matter what advantages you may gain from it in the game. this is the major problem with the skill, because you can get a variety of player problems in game because of your new targetting system. some are ingame, such as the player getting stunned, but some are out of game; what will happen if hte player doesn't hold down the mouse button? vector targeting as it is only works when holding and dragging the cursor in a specific direction.

The first thing is - you dont have to press any ouse buttons to use this skill. Just hold 'R' and move your mouse (the same instant you press 'R' Mineral starts casting this spell and the first target is up to 350 units away in your mouse direction; the moment you release 'R' or get stunned, etc the skill stops).

However this skill should have some 'turn smoothing' effect, i.e. it should turn slowly (that way allowing one to escape).

As I already said - this skill might be used in variety of ways - as initiate (to separate someone), as damage source after q-w combo in melee, counter initiatation and retreat mechanism (however for this purpose second skill is more appropriate).

I should bump the cast range by 100 i think to make it a bit easier to use and also mention that the wall has turn smoothing, so you cant turn it that fast.

what more is, that with something like and aoe effect, the player can gain pretty much the same effect, without having to go out of the way to create a new targeting system which will be tedious to use.

That's not the same effect, as your propodsal is a 'single use' semi-disable and your's also make it necessary to be in point-blank range with enemies.

personally the skill i would remake the ulti into would be something like

this skill would be able to both damage and separate enemies during a fight, making their only chance to stay together to either destroy the wall (and take the damage), or wait out the duration. the damage is not overpowering, because it is limited to a circle with 150 units in diameter. each crystal will hit the next crystal, creating a domino effect, but it would be very hard if not impossible to take all the damage at once.

With the reworked second skill (by the way what's your opinion on that?) this proposal is not an option atm. (i have another idea for ulti - its in the end of the post.)

--------------------------------------

@HawkeyeBR

Originally Posted by HawkeyeBR

Now third skill is fine, but I think it should be Superior Magic, cause I can't immagine a hero with magic immunity not getting trapped by it.

Dont know whether it is still 'magic' =) But, ye ill change it ti Superior type.

The problem right now is the ultimate, that I still think it won't work, but the remake sugested by Sentura won't work either, since your last changes on Diamond Cage.

Ye, think that too. But i have a slightly reworked idea of my ulti (in the next section).

--------------------------------------

I came up with a bit altered idea for Mineral's Ult:

Make it spawn less crystals - up to 2-3 per second (or even a single one - this way you wont have to draw it - just cast multiple crystals anywhere), but make them much larger (not in radius, but in length: like a 25*220 rectangle). Also they will deal more damage on impale and will not crumble if placed one under another.

I like the idea with few crystals more.

About 3/5/7 charges per level and each crystal is about 40*300 rectangle. Cast range ~450. No cooldown, but charges are gained every ~20 seconds independently of each other. You may stop casting it right after the first crystal pops and place another one, but if you continue casting it - the next one appears where the last one 'ended' (so the second one might be placed up to 750 units away), and so on. Damage per crystal is about 125/150/175.

--------------------------------------

I'd like to hear your ideas about that.
Thanks for all the reviews.

**Sentura** · 07-26-2011, 06:22 PM

i just had a look at the second skill. it honestly seems like it has very little value in terms of what it does. it's just a nuke that leaves random trails of potential mini nukes over a small area? personally i'd remake it in favor of adding the ulti i suggested, since i know the ulti i suggested would be viable i competitive play. and i really dislike the idea of vector targeting, because it's going to be harder than you think it's going to be.

the new ulti suggestion... is basically what your second skill should be. create a single crystal at target area. while being created, it deals ~150 m.dmg at lvl4, up to 4 crystals can be created, each has 100 health, each deals ~100 m.dmg at lvl4 in 75 radius and stuns for 0.5 sec. double tapping W will cause all crystals to explode automatically. crystals are treated as obstacles.

cooldown per charge on crystals should be 12 seconds or so, up to 4 charges.

diamond cage is op in the sense that chronos pretty much gets a similar ability as an ultimate. even with the added health pool and damage in -> out and out -> in damages the cage rather than players (which, btw, is a really well done condition), as well as the fact that you can't blink out makes it really hard on those few heroes that have and need blink for these exact situations.

maybe remake into a single target spell that allows a target (friendly or enemy) to be put in stasis for up to 4 seconds? you could add something like a small heal if it was an ally and a little bit of damage if it was an enemy. this would also synergize well with the other skills without being the slightest bit overpowered.

**[Demi]Forest_Elf** · 07-26-2011, 08:03 PM

Originally Posted by Sentura

diamond cage is op in the sense that chronos pretty much gets a similar ability as an ultimate. even with the added health pool and damage in -> out and out -> in damages the cage rather than players (which, btw, is a really well done condition), as well as the fact that you can't blink out makes it really hard on those few heroes that have and need blink for these exact situations.

maybe remake into a single target spell that allows a target (friendly or enemy) to be put in stasis for up to 4 seconds? you could add something like a small heal if it was an ally and a little bit of damage if it was an enemy. this would also synergize well with the other skills without being the slightest bit overpowered.

Dont really like the idea of a single target spell, as it becomes just the same (to some extent) as Succ's Mesmerize.

And i do agree about that blink thing. Will it be fine if this aspect is removed? This way it will be alike Phar's Wall, but ranged and a bit easier to break. Also adding heal is not an option in this concept.

But still there are skills that apply Perplexed (am i right on this one?) that dissalows to use blink-like abilities. So this may be fine in this hero design, as Mineral does not have a single REAL disable - only a single slow and this skill. So that may be fine to give him such an ability. (By the way it will look really good when Mineral kills someone inside such a cage with some huge crystal =D )

And Chronos' ulti is way different, as it is a true disable. Enemies cant do a thing in that state. However inside a cage they can still try to do something or break the cage apart. As i mentioned - its more like Pharaoh's Wall than Chrono Sphere.

i just had a look at the second skill. it honestly seems like it has very little value in terms of what it does. it's just a nuke that leaves random trails of potential mini nukes over a small area? personally i'd remake it in favor of adding the ulti i suggested, since i know the ulti i suggested would be viable i competitive play. and i really dislike the idea of vector targeting, because it's going to be harder than you think it's going to be.

the new ulti suggestion... is basically what your second skill should be. create a single crystal at target area. while being created, it deals ~150 m.dmg at lvl4, up to 4 crystals can be created, each has 100 health, each deals ~100 m.dmg at lvl4 in 75 radius and stuns for 0.5 sec. double tapping W will cause all crystals to explode automatically. crystals are treated as obstacles.

cooldown per charge on crystals should be 12 seconds or so, up to 4 charges.

Yes, the second skill IS a nuke with some cc on it (however i'd say that 45% slow is a powerfull slow).

Frankly, i dislike the idea of exploding crystals.

Your idea is a good one, but still it doesn't look like an ulti. In amost all respects it mimics Phar's Wall (it lacks the push, but it can blow up).

My latest idea for ulti was to make it alike Emp's Wall - to be able to place a number of walls over the area (a fast aand long one or slow multiple short ones or use it as damage). This will give some versatility to this skill and taking into consideration that in most cases you'll have you primary skills out in first half a second - you'll have some time to place thos shards in battle in the most suitable wa. Or you may even init with this.

Can any1 comment on this?

**Memphis_Doom** · 07-27-2011, 02:29 AM

most likely have to add to the game.mechanic file since it limits/defines the logic in game.

Neat hero & love the ulti.

**Sentura** · 07-27-2011, 06:32 AM

empath's wall isn't an ulti either, and your ulti is very comparable to behemoth's fissure. the only thing that makes my suggestion worthy of an ultimate, is because of the damage it deals when the crystals break. if you implemented it with my second skill suggestion/your ulti suggestion, you'd have amazing synergy that would make it immensely more powerful than either of your ultis.

like i said before, i am also looking at use at a competitive level, where the synergy with the second skill would make it possible for skilled mineral players to create small traps or fields that would do damage in the same way as bombadier's ultimate.

in your current state, with your vector curve, it will NOT be popular, and it will not be useful, and its problem of steering the wall will persist. a skilled behemoth will still be much more worth, since he can lay down a fissure in 0.8 seconds, whereas your ulti would take x number of seconds before a wall would be created. you have to understand that in that case, behemoth's NON ULTI fissure skill is more worth than your ulti.

**[OhN]HawkeyeBR** · 07-27-2011, 09:29 AM

I think you should lower the HP of the Diamond Cage, to maybe 100/200/300/400, 0 armor, 0 magic armor. But don't change the idea and mechanics, its fine and working. Just take a look at Pharao's wall to make sure your numbers (especialy mana cost and cooldown, that must be higher) are fine, since your skill has better uses.

**[Demi]Forest_Elf** · 07-28-2011, 07:07 AM

Originally Posted by Memphis_Doom

most likely have to add to the game.mechanic file since it limits/defines the logic in game.

Neat hero & love the ulti.

Thanks.

That kind of game logic cant be added by mod makers, unfo.

Originally Posted by Sentura

empath's wall isn't an ulti either, and your ulti is very comparable to behemoth's fissure. the only thing that makes my suggestion worthy of an ultimate, is because of the damage it deals when the crystals break. if you implemented it with my second skill suggestion/your ulti suggestion, you'd have amazing synergy that would make it immensely more powerful than either of your ultis.

like i said before, i am also looking at use at a competitive level, where the synergy with the second skill would make it possible for skilled mineral players to create small traps or fields that would do damage in the same way as bombadier's ultimate.

in your current state, with your vector curve, it will NOT be popular, and it will not be useful, and its problem of steering the wall will persist. a skilled behemoth will still be much more worth, since he can lay down a fissure in 0.8 seconds, whereas your ulti would take x number of seconds before a wall would be created. you have to understand that in that case, behemoth's NON ULTI fissure skill is more worth than your ulti.

Gave it a thought, and i must admit that you are right. My ulti as it is now (or even the change i proposed) wont be that usefull at all.

As u said this skill may be moved from ulti to a simple skill with some changes like making up to 4 charges and damage up to ~150 and let them stay for 15 seconds (or until destroyd).

I cant get a grip of what you meant when you suggested that ulti change. Like an area with ~50% slow inside and a wall outside that blows up when destroyd? I just dont like the idea of crystals blowing up.

There's the other choice as i see. 1st skill is Ruby Stake, 2nd is Jewell Wall (with changes i mentioned), 3rd is Sapphire Spikes (or smth like that) and make Diamond Cage an ulti with some changes (like allow Mineral to cast inside from outside while noone else can, and a low cooldown for an ulti like 30 secs). The thing is if i remove Sapphire - then Mineral wont have a single control spell (only damaging ones) and your ulti - in this case i think he wont be that usefull too, as he wont be able to compete with TB in the area of dps and with other casters in the area of control.

So what would you say about my proposal? This way he'll have both moderate damage and indirect control spells. However i dont know if this ulti will be usefull.

Anyway thanks for your help.

Originally Posted by HawkeyeBR

I think you should lower the HP of the Diamond Cage, to maybe 100/200/300/400, 0 armor, 0 magic armor. But don't change the idea and mechanics, its fine and working. Just take a look at Pharao's wall to make sure your numbers (especialy mana cost and cooldown, that must be higher) are fine, since your skill has better uses.

Think going to rework this hero a bit (see my reply to Sentura's post). Feel free to post any comments on that =)

----

PS: Sorry for my language - bad morning....

**[OhN]HawkeyeBR** · 07-28-2011, 10:53 AM

The idea of making Diamond Cage as ult is a good one. Just make the AoE bigger (like 400) and the duration scale better. I just still don't know what to do with your Jewell Wall.

**[Demi]Forest_Elf** · 07-28-2011, 12:52 PM

Originally Posted by HawkeyeBR

The idea of making Diamond Cage as ult is a good one. Just make the AoE bigger (like 400) and the duration scale better. I just still don't know what to do with your Jewell Wall.

Here's my idea as of now:

Ult: Diamond Cage

Ability Type: Target - Ground.
Type: Superior Magic.
Manacost: ???.
Range: 500.
Radius: 300.
Cooldown: 40 seconds.

Visual: Mineral raises his hand and clinches his fist. A brilliant shaped semi-sphere appears.

Raises a barrier with 300/450/600 hp around the target location for 3/4/5 seconds. Noone can leave or enter the barrier, as well as interfe in what happens inside.

Note 1: Anyone from outside trying to damage anyone inside damages barrier instead. The same applies for the ones inside.
Note 2: Barrier has 50% magic armor and 10% physical armor.
Note 3: You cant blink out or in the barrier.
Note 4: Only mineral can cast from outside to inside.

Jewel Wall

Ability type: Vector -Target.
Type: Magical.
Target: Enemy/neutral units.
Manacost: ???
Range: 450.
Cooldown: 1 second.
Cast Time: 0.75 second.

Visual: Mineral burrows both his hand into earth.

Summons a big crystal (approx. 35*350) with 150/250/300/350 hp. If an enemy is hit while summoning a crystal - he receives 70/90/100/110 magic damage and push aside a bit. Crystal is destroyed if it has no hp or after 15 seconds. Maximum of 2/2/3/4 charges. Regains 1 charge every 20 seconds.

Note: Mineral can summon consecutive crystals with less cast time (as he doesnt have to burrow his hands again) and with further range (next crystal can be either summoned in 450 range or in 50 range around the end of previous alive crystal).

Well - something like that. Not edditing first post, as i want you all to check it first.

Thread: Mineral [R4R]

Thread Tools

Search Thread

Display

Mineral [R4R]

Posting Permissions

Empty Custom Account Icon Slot!