The Madman

[[5nK]Nytemair]

Frostwolf is a great item, but it isn't core in a lot of games.

When I say trash, I don't mean absolute garbage for the most part (spellshards cough), but I mean either too expensive to farm, or will be difficult to build etc.

Take Skadi - over 6k gold for a slow, nice stats and health and mana. However rushing this wouldn't be so great unless you just get the glowstone first then proceed with other core like a Shrunken.

However -- Skadi is an Orb Effect, meaning no life steal. It makes you a tank, but nerfs your damage output when compared to things such as Savage. In addition, team fights don't require the slow unless the enemy scatters because they get raped. In which case Barrel Roll and Stalk + your team mates will be enough to chase them down.

I find Skadi is obviously a strong item, but your mana issues and survivability can be solved with cheaper items, without the need for an Orb effect (Nullstone or Hellflower, for example), and you can spend more time farming more important items such as Shrunken Head, or saving the gold for buy backs.

I will add Skadi into situational for the benefit of the doubt, and will rename "Trash Items" to something less extreme so people don't get the wrong idea.

[Anakha]

This guide is written for competitive play, while Madman is a great solo in pubs around the 1600-1700 bracket, you won't see it in anything above that. In addition, he is sub par when compared to something like a Blood Hunter who will simply silence his casts and Blood Sense to prevent invis. In addition, he can heal all of a Madman's harass and Madman doesn't have the early game mana to produce a lot of Stalk spams until you have your bottle.

See, you said the words "competitive play" and "sub par to blood hunter" in the same paragraph. Not a good start.

Madman can and has in the past solo'd quite effectively against several cookie-cutter mids and is still capable of doing so. Bottle is pitifully easy to farm as a mid hero with a 60 mana nuke and melee base damage to lasthit with.

I agree that he is a powerful ganker, but his time is much better spent farming his core, afterwards he is free to participate in team fights and gank.

The nature of Madman's abilities give him presence in a game and the ability to farm without the need to AFK rice farm.

I stated this somewhere in the guide.

You said to not pick Madman if you already had a carry, unless you were running 2 carries. Not picking a 3rd is just common sense, so the whole statement is redundant.

Frostfield is not trash, when my net is fixed I will upload a replay of Freshpro (i believe it was) dominating because the other carries couldn't keep up with the -% attack speed.

Frostfield slows movement speed in a %, not attack speed. The -25 attack speed from FFP is basically taking the additional attack speed off Steamboots. Extremely negligible.

Also, Freshpro has built Tablet on Madman before and wrecked face with it. Doesn't mean it's a good item.
Frostwolf also slows, and does so through Magic mmunity, increasing time on target and potential DPS, as well as offering a bit of damage and mass survivability.

Charged Hammer is useful against high-armor heroes such as Legionnaire, as it deals Magic Damage. His attack speed works well with the proc and as far as I know, it doesn't have an internal cooldown. (It can keep proccing).

Charged Hammer is a 5500g item that offers zero survivability, negligible actual attack speed increases to a hero with +120as built into a cheap ability (since stacking attack speed gives diminishing returns), and its on-proc also offers a pitiful increase in DPS, but a great farming tool (which Madman does not need).
If you want to negate armour, you go for Harkon's Blade which is another item you did not mention.

Nullstone and Hellflower is quite overkill when it comes to Mana. One or the other is fine, but getting them both without a Runed Axe means you will be ganking a lot, and this guide is not about ganking, it is about playing Madman as a Hard Carry.

Madman farms entire creep waves with ease with the combination of his 2 nukes.
Runed Axe gives 65 damage, +150% mana regen, and cleave for 4350g.
Nullstone gives 25 damage, +200% mana regen, and survivability for 4800g.
Hellflower gives 50 damage, +30as, +225% mana regen, and a damage amp/disable for 4725g.

I didn't say to get both. I said all 3 are viable options vs certain lineups and to be quite honest, Runed Axe is only worth taking for clearing stacked camps with Cleave without having to use mana, both of which the other provide in abundance anyway so you can without regrets.

I don't get Chalice as it usually requires you changing your starting items, in addition, I find a Bottle and Power Supply is more than enough early game Mana before you can get a sustainer.

You do not need to replace starting items just to get Chalice :/ Which brings me to my next point: lack of Iron Buckler alternative for starting items. if you're writing this in view of competitive play, then I shouldn't need to explain why this is needed.

[[5nK]Nytemair]

See, you said the words "competitive play" and "sub par to blood hunter" in the same paragraph. Not a good start.

Madman can and has in the past solo'd quite effectively against several cookie-cutter mids and is still capable of doing so. Bottle is pitifully easy to farm as a mid hero with a 60 mana nuke and melee base damage to lasthit with.

Against something like a high tier Arachna or Thunderbringer and you're ****ed.

The nature of Madman's abilities give him presence in a game and the ability to farm without the need to AFK rice farm.

I've tried on several occasions to do a more gank/killing oriented Madman, but each time there's a leaver or something else preventing me from getting a good enough idea, although I will agree the idea is very strong.

You said to not pick Madman if you already had a carry, unless you were running 2 carries. Not picking a 3rd is just common sense, so the whole statement is redundant.

^ This.

Frostfield slows movement speed in a %, not attack speed. The -25 attack speed from FFP is basically taking the additional attack speed off Steamboots. Extremely negligible.

Also, Freshpro has built Tablet on Madman before and wrecked face with it. Doesn't mean it's a good item.
Frostwolf also slows, and does so through Magic mmunity, increasing time on target and potential DPS, as well as offering a bit of damage and mass survivability.

Frostfield isn't just for the slow, it also solves ALL your mana issues and grants armor for your team. Thus the reason it's in situational.

Charged Hammer is a 5500g item that offers zero survivability, negligible actual attack speed increases to a hero with +120as built into a cheap ability (since stacking attack speed gives diminishing returns), and its on-proc also offers a pitiful increase in DPS, but a great farming tool (which Madman does not need).
If you want to negate armour, you go for Harkon's Blade which is another item you did not mention.

I like Charged Hammer, it was a fine item in DotA until the changed it too a static attack speed increase, but it's still a nice AoE pushing/farming item, and the shield/proc is still useful in teamfights.

Also, I didn't mention Harkon's for a reason, it's not core, and it's rarely situational -- I am by no means saying it's a bad item for Madman, I'm saying you will rarely get it. Very rarely.

Madman farms entire creep waves with ease with the combination of his 2 nukes.
Runed Axe gives 65 damage, +150% mana regen, and cleave for 4350g.
Nullstone gives 25 damage, +200% mana regen, and survivability for 4800g.
Hellflower gives 50 damage, +30as, +225% mana regen, and a damage amp/disable for 4725g.

I didn't say to get both. I said all 3 are viable options vs certain lineups and to be quite honest, Runed Axe is only worth taking for clearing stacked camps with Cleave without having to use mana, both of which the other provide in abundance anyway so you can without regrets.

I didn't say they were bad items either, I mislabelled the section Null was in as "trash" because I was originally going to put things like Midas/Spell Shards etc in it. It has been renamed, and Null and Hellflower are both in Situational (as in depending on the situation, you will get these items).

You do not need to replace starting items just to get Chalice :/ Which brings me to my next point: lack of Iron Buckler alternative for starting items. if you're writing this in view of competitive play, then I shouldn't need to explain why this is needed.

I said "usually" meaning you would start with a Gauntlet + Mark and work from there, but you can also get it later on.

The Iron Buckler/Axe strat wasn't posted because I said that the item builds were guidelines, ofc you would choose different items going mid, but in this guide I am trying to shift players from the middle lane, to learn better about a side lane farming/killing Madman.

I have implemented a lot of suggestions already, continually arguing about things that you put in the guide isn't constructive; it's arguing.

[[PSSY]fenrixx]

Against something like a high tier Arachna or Thunderbringer and you're ****ed.



I've tried on several occasions to do a more gank/killing oriented Madman, but each time there's a leaver or something else preventing me from getting a good enough idea, although I will agree the idea is very strong.



^ This.



Frostfield isn't just for the slow, it also solves ALL your mana issues and grants armor for your team. Thus the reason it's in situational.



I like Charged Hammer, it was a fine item in DotA until the changed it too a static attack speed increase, but it's still a nice AoE pushing/farming item, and the shield/proc is still useful in teamfights.

Also, I didn't mention Harkon's for a reason, it's not core, and it's rarely situational -- I am by no means saying it's a bad item for Madman, I'm saying you will rarely get it. Very rarely.



I didn't say they were bad items either, I mislabelled the section Null was in as "trash" because I was originally going to put things like Midas/Spell Shards etc in it. It has been renamed, and Null and Hellflower are both in Situational (as in depending on the situation, you will get these items).




I said "usually" meaning you would start with a Gauntlet + Mark and work from there, but you can also get it later on.

The Iron Buckler/Axe strat wasn't posted because I said that the item builds were guidelines, ofc you would choose different items going mid, but in this guide I am trying to shift players from the middle lane, to learn better about a side lane farming/killing Madman.

I have implemented a lot of suggestions already, continually arguing about things that you put in the guide isn't constructive; it's arguing.

I might wrong, but I don't think frostfieldplate gives an armor aura.

[Anakha]

Against something like a high tier Arachna or Thunderbringer and you're ****ed.

Arachna screws every melee for the most part, yet Madman actually deals with Arachna better than most. Thunderbringer comes down to pressure, runes and not letting him establish lane dominance.

I've tried on several occasions to do a more gank/killing oriented Madman, but each time there's a leaver or something else preventing me from getting a good enough idea, although I will agree the idea is very strong.

Mention in a section, go. Ganking with a Madman does not mean you don't farm in between.

Frostfield isn't just for the slow, it also solves ALL your mana issues and grants armor for your team. Thus the reason it's in situational.

FFP doesn't give an armour aura.
Bottle with the combination of any of your first real items (RA, Hellflower, Nullstone) solve your mana problems as all of your spells are a cheap mana cost. Given that Madman is agility and has a fairly decent gain, armour isn't exactly the biggest issue for him and Daemonic Breastplate offers more of a carry oriented buildup and benefits for him.

I like Charged Hammer, it was a fine item in DotA until the changed it too a static attack speed increase, but it's still a nice AoE pushing/farming item, and the shield/proc is still useful in teamfights.

But extremely subpar for the hero for most of its core advantages. That was my point.

Also, I didn't mention Harkon's for a reason, it's not core, and it's rarely situational -- I am by no means saying it's a bad item for Madman, I'm saying you will rarely get it. Very rarely.

That's the definition of situational: You only get it when a certain situation arises. It doesn't matter how rare or common the situation is.

I said "usually" meaning you would start with a Gauntlet + Mark and work from there, but you can also get it later on.

Mention, gogo.

The Iron Buckler/Axe strat wasn't posted because I said that the item builds were guidelines, ofc you would choose different items going mid, but in this guide I am trying to shift players from the middle lane, to learn better about a side lane farming/killing Madman.

Buckler/Hatchet is trash for the most part on most heroes. I'm talking about a Buckler starting item build, which is the common standard for a melee carry in a tri-lane.

I have implemented a lot of suggestions already, continually arguing about things that you put in the guide isn't constructive; it's arguing.

1. You asked for help/constructive criticism.

You mean there's more?! Feel free to elaborate, I want to make this as collective and informative as possible.

2. You expressed a desire for the guide to eventually become Premium.

3. This is free advice, and by no means should you feel obligated to even mention any of the stuff I have here. But if you want people to regard your guide as a cut above the usual trash guides posted here, you will need to consider all of the information that I've given you here and either be able to reconcile it, or include it appropriately.

4. Just because I'm the first here to mention all of the things does not mean that other people are not thinking the exact same things when they open and read your guide, and then immediately discard it. I can stop giving you advice and recommendations if you'd like, but you won't be impressing many people when you recommend items out of left field with no idea of how they work, or why they're good.

Good luck with it.

[[5nK]Nytemair]

Arachna screws every melee for the most part, yet Madman actually deals with Arachna better than most. Thunderbringer comes down to pressure, runes and not letting him establish lane dominance.

Yes Thunderbringer has much more pressure and rune control, but Arachna has much more CS control (denies) which prevent XP and gold, hindering your early game. I'd say they're about even to verse if played well.

Mention in a section, go. Ganking with a Madman does not mean you don't farm in between.

Will do

FFP doesn't give an armour aura.

Mistype, I was tired hahaha.

Bottle with the combination of any of your first real items (RA, Hellflower, Nullstone) solve your mana problems as all of your spells are a cheap mana cost. Given that Madman is agility and has a fairly decent gain, armour isn't exactly the biggest issue for him and Daemonic Breastplate offers more of a carry oriented buildup and benefits for him.




But extremely subpar for the hero for most of its core advantages. That was my point.


That's the definition of situational: You only get it when a certain situation arises. It doesn't matter how rare or common the situation is.

If people find FFP too controversial I'll remove it.

Mention, gogo.

Consider it done.

Buckler/Hatchet is trash for the most part on most heroes. I'm talking about a Buckler starting item build, which is the common standard for a melee carry in a tri-lane.

Oh really? I didn't know buckler in a tri-lane was necessary due to the 2 supports usually preventing harass, but I'll add it in.

1. You asked for help/constructive criticism.

2. You expressed a desire for the guide to eventually become Premium.

3. This is free advice, and by no means should you feel obligated to even mention any of the stuff I have here. But if you want people to regard your guide as a cut above the usual trash guides posted here, you will need to consider all of the information that I've given you here and either be able to reconcile it, or include it appropriately.

4. Just because I'm the first here to mention all of the things does not mean that other people are not thinking the exact same things when they open and read your guide, and then immediately discard it. I can stop giving you advice and recommendations if you'd like, but you won't be impressing many people when you recommend items out of left field with no idea of how they work, or why they're good.

I did ask for constructive criticism, yours is very helpful but very difficult to add in without contradicting other parts of the guide -- different play styles and situations call for different builds.

Good luck with it.

Cheers, you've helped loads (:.

[[5nK]Nytemair]

Changed a lot of items in the guide, thanks to Anakha and Fenrixx.

Cheers for the feedback, keep it up guys!

[[5nK]Nytemair]

*bumps*

[Anakha]

Yes Thunderbringer has much more pressure and rune control, but Arachna has much more CS control (denies) which prevent XP and gold, hindering your early game. I'd say they're about even to verse if played well.

From level 1, you have a 90 damage nuke to cs with for 60 mana so you're able to cs relatively frequently even if you have trouble approaching the creeps. If you're against a hard matchup, mana pots are worth much more than a hatchet will ever be.

Also, buckler/hatchet/regen start? badbad. trust. hatchet is a crutch for lasthitting for the most part, especially with madman. hatchet only viable to start ONLY if you're mid against a melee, and that would usually replace your buckler (as you aren't really going to be harassed in lane by a melee, no?)

If people find FFP too controversial I'll remove it.

Not necessary if you can reasonably justify why you've included it (as a situational item at best) beyond superficial synergy.

Oh really? I didn't know buckler in a tri-lane was necessary due to the 2 supports usually preventing harass, but I'll add it in.

This rarely happens. At some point, you have to approach the creeps and unless you've outpicked their tri-lane something shocking, you're going to be on the receiving end of some hits. The consistently strongest damage from level 1-3 will be from autoattacks. This is more so if they have a ranged farmer in the tri-lane, and if they've decided to go for double ranged supports. Double ranged supports imply that they're going to be trying to hammer you at every opportunity to establish lane dominance (as opposed to a more burst-kill oriented tri-lane with strong stuns to simply lockdown a hero at will every x seconds and kill them).

I did ask for constructive criticism, yours is very helpful but very difficult to add in without contradicting other parts of the guide -- different play styles and situations call for different builds.

New information tends to do that. Given the guide I've authored, I've had to bite the bullet and change some stuff that I really disagreed with (but was actually right), most recently Rampage and Warbeast. **** sucks, but it's better it happens sooner rather than later.

[[5nK]Sycko]

Harkons on madman...oh dear lol, I can just imagine how fast his mana pool would drain with his ult on xD

[[USA]IndianaJones]

really cool guide thanks dude

[[5nK]Nytemair]

Bamp :3

[[5nK]Nytemair]

bump (:

[[5nK]Nytemair]

bump

[[5nK]Nytemair]

bump

[[5nK]Nytemair]

barmp READ MY GUIDE

[[5nK]Nytemair]

And the great one said:

"I hereby bumpeth this guide, so forth pushing it to the top of the list it resideth in."

[Jezu]

Please stop writing/drawing the pictures with your mouse, it looks sloppy.
Indent body text, if you are willing for a premium guide.

-You have a jungler, you should not be soloing the Short Lane in competitive play. (Junglers in competitive play? D: )
^ What? Are you serious? Madman is a great sidelane solo-hero, and junglers are used in competitive play too...

Other than that, the content is pretty nice, but the formatting is poor.

[[5nK]Nytemair]

Please stop writing/drawing the pictures with your mouse, it looks sloppy.
Indent body text, if you are willing for a premium guide.

-You have a jungler, you should not be soloing the Short Lane in competitive play. (Junglers in competitive play? D: )
^ What? Are you serious? Madman is a great sidelane solo-hero, and junglers are used in competitive play too...

Other than that, the content is pretty nice, but the formatting is poor.

Thanks for the feedback, I was going to use Photoshop but I'm on a brand spankin' new computer that doesn't have PS yet. :{

As for indenting body text, I might play around with the layout and read up a bit more on RogerDodger's guide -- but in my defence there are a lot worse looking guides in the Premium section already :P.

As for the jungling part, for some reason I was only thinking of hard carries like Warbeast or tanks like Legionnaire, and forgot about things like Tempest. However jungling is rarely seen due to the tri-lane meta at the moment, having 2 solos means you cannot tri-lane yourself, or it means you cannot counter an enemy tri-lane with 2/2/1 or anything. (I know you shouldn't pick junglers if you are versing a tri-lane, but my point is still valid).

I'll change some bits and pieces in the not-too-distant future. :}

[Jezu]

As for indenting body text, I might play around with the layout and read up a bit more on RogerDodger's guide -- but in my defence there are a lot worse looking guides in the Premium section already :P.

As for the jungling part, for some reason I was only thinking of hard carries like Warbeast or tanks like Legionnaire, and forgot about things like Tempest. However jungling is rarely seen due to the tri-lane meta at the moment, having 2 solos means you cannot tri-lane yourself, or it means you cannot counter an enemy tri-lane with 2/2/1 or anything. (I know you shouldn't pick junglers if you are versing a tri-lane, but my point is still valid.

I think they all were from a long time ago, and the reguirements have been raised, also, if someone lets his guide to look like ****, doesn't mean you shall

Jungler is very effective to go agaisnt trilane (as he will just go farm neutrals) obviously it can be countered, unless you have far by better trilane.
Also, MM is used as the solo-hero as he is pretty strong 1v1 hero on sidelane, or can leach some exp at 1v3.
Also, junglers are sometimes used while having 3 solos, and 2 junglers. I believe SK won with that strat some time ago.