FJ’s guide to drafting and ingame strategies

[[z]Genjuro]

FJ’s guide to drafting and ingame strategies
The drafting part in real games is where it all begins. If your drafting goes wrong, it will require a whole bunch of good plays from your side, and bad plays from the opponents in order to come back in the game.
If a team is equally skilled, the drafting is what will end up killing one of the teams, if you consider wrong itempickups and poor deaths.

Introduction [1.1]
Hi, my name is Frederik ”FJ” Jacobsen and I am the leader of team wake up bro. Recently we have been encountering a lot of breakpoints, we’ve seen what strategies works well for us, what doesn’t. We have also been analyzing some of the most common issues with our plays, which have lead me to a lot of conclusive opinions which I now feel that I have a responsibility to share with you.
All of my guides are based on personal experience, guidance from competitive players, including my clan, and a lot of hard work.
If you do have anything you wish to discuss, or something you feel like should be added – do not hesitate to give me a poke somewhere, and I’ll gladly help you understanding my thoughts, if I’m not busy that is.

Table of contents

• Introduction [1.1]
• About this guide [1.2]
• Credits [1.3]
• The ganker [2.0]
• The initiator [3.0]
• The carry [4.0]
• The pusher [5.0]
• The unkillables! [6.0]
• The tricarry [7.0]
• The -armor strategy [8.0]
• Other guides [9.0]

Use the search function (CTRL+B/S) and search for the number to go to your destination.
1

About this guide: [1.2]
The idea of this guide is not to command you to do anything, it is merely guidance made for teams who wish to break their current bracket.
I would imagine some of you might question some of these ideas – I am willing to discuss them, but only if the questions are reasonable, and not just trolls.
It is 100% based on my own experience and play with wake up bro.

Credits: [1.3]
I would like to thank everyone who has contributed in any way to making this guide, some of the names i would like to include is as followed:

Clans:
Wake up bro
Danish Dynamite
KD Gaming Ev

People
Kippetje
Swindlemelonzz
TrueninjA
Lobbyse
Jah`

- Please do not be mad if i have not written you down, everyones help is appreciated.

The ganker [2.0]
The ganker is one of the easiest setups to play, it really only requires good counterwarding and solid teamwork. The idea is to have a very solid combination of spells, which should be able to finish off your opponent before being able to escape in any way. (This requires a stun-combination).
Usually the ganksetup requires a speedbooster or a long range stun – a Portal Key can work, but as we all know it takes time to farm, and sometimes you don’t have that.
The idea is to gank the opponent core-heroes so much, that eventually their GPM will drop low enough for the opponent to be in so much a favored situation, to be able to win the game with a single teamfight or push.
If you're on top of the game, you can have a carry freefarming for additional advantage, while the rest of the team is trying to shut down the opponent team (Should be easy if you're already on top)

Example of this lineup:
In this lineup, you can either do a trilane with tort/hammer/nymph, or put one of your supporters with Pebbles, to increase his chances of an early portal key.

Pros:

• Easy to play
• Can leave your carry freefarming while the rest of the team is ganking
• Hard to read if drafted right
• Provides a psychological advantage, in terms of the opponent being awefully scared.

Cons:

• If no significant ganks happens before the 20 minute mark, the game is over. Heroes involved in the gankstrat are very rarely used as carries.
• Requires a whole bunch of warding. Good counterwarders will know when you gank.
• Homecoming Stones provides a very good opportunity for the opponent to take advantage of a “known” upcoming gank.

Tips:

• is the best ganker. By porting into the woods near one of their carries, you can pick him off before the enemy notice. (Make sure it is not a bait though).
• Countering opponent-wards makes it way easier to gank.
• Regulary killing opponent neutral-forest will give you more mapcontrol, as they will have to stay on lane to farm.
• Everything is worth ganking – if you can’t gank the carries, try the supporters. By ganking the supporters you leave them without gold to ward / counterward.
• After a gank, take usage of Torturer / Hammerstorm's towerrape-capabilities

How to counter:

• Silencers: Defiler, Vindicator, Bubbles (Silencers can provide a combination being broken, and that is all a gankstrat has usually)
• Damagenerfers: Chipper (Focus Buffer), Demented Shaman, Jereziah, Accursed.
• Escapers/TP’ers: Bubbles, Valkyrie, Nymphora
• Town portals: If you see them coming, TP instantly in order to either escape or countergank.
• Simple gank: Hammerstorm galvanizes, increasing the speed of him and his friends – he stuns 1-2 players, torturer and nymphora combines their stuns + damage, and 1-2 players die. The lane is now clear, and Torturer and Hammerstorm can combine their stuns to destroy the tower.
• Advanced gank: Nymphora portals a couple of players past their wards, or Valkyrie invis-initiates on the opponent.

The initiator [3.0]
The initiator is what you would describe as “situational”. The strategy has its viability from level 6 and on, and can happen whenever and anywhere. The general idea is to initiate with a strong ultimate, and with a combination of spells, leaves the surprised, useless and dead.
Example of this lineup: :chro:
In this case you would trilane Chronos + the two supporters, with Pollywog mid and Chipper on the sololane.
At level 7+ you should be able to take teamfights, and with coordination from you and your teammates, you should win them.

Good adds to this setup: Wretched Hag, Chipper, Forsaken Archer, Demented Shaman, Voodoo Jester, Defiler, Pollywog Priest, Flint Beastwood, Soulstealer (In general, heroes that can deal a lot of dmg from range, preferably bursted into this 5-10 second combination.

Pros:

• Can happen whenever, anywhere
• Provides plenty of space for farming, usually lets the high-damagers with a very solid GPM and levels.
• The heroes are far from useless when their ultimates are on cooldown, and even if so, the cd is low.

Cons:

• Tanky/beefy heroes tend not to die in a spell-heavy initiate.
• It requires a whole bunch of vision to know when the best initiate is possible
• If you accidently miss one of the opponents nukeblockers in your initiate, an ultimate can be wasted for no purpose (Vindicator, Defiler, Tempest/Keeper or longrange stuns such as Pharaoh.
• Example: Chronos uses his Time Leap to get into a proper position to ultimate. The ultimate hits 3 players, Hag and Forsaken Archer uses their ultimate to finish off the unfortunate heroes inside the ultimate. Voodoo Jester can ulti from the outside.
• Advanced example: Pharaoh ultimates their carry/coreplayer (Defiler, Hellbringer) – Pharaoh ultimates, Soulstealer blink’s in with ultimate on top. (This kills the MVP of the enemy, and lane can now be pushed).

Tips:

• Never initiate without knowledge of the entire opponent team, unless you can “sneak-kill” their coreheroes.
• Make sure that everyone is present in the teamfight, you don’t want to blow 4 ultimates without having the 5th to finish all of them off.
• If you carry TP’s this strategy gets boosted a lot, as the opponent won’t have time to spread and position themselves.
• Make sure you have banned some of those which can rape your lineup.

How to counter:
Plenty of defensive items. (Helm of the black legion, Mystic Vestment)
Damagestoppers: Silencer, Defiler, Kotf
Ass-savers: Demented Shaman, Andromeda, Valkyrie.
Portal-key interrupters: Thunderbringer, Sand Wraith, Vindicator

The carry [4.0] (outdated cause of new patch)
This strategy was the most popular half a year back, but was countered by the ganker, since then it has dropped in popularity.
The idea is to let a very hard carry get a very high GPM, and then let that hero win the game by itself. You basically sacrifice / ignore the other lanes, and then focus all the way on the carry. This was where trilane became popular.
You would have 2x supporters harras the opponent, which left the carry to free farm, and pick up very solid early items, in many cases a Runed Axe, as seen on Dark Lady, Magebane and Chronos. – Sometimes we would see Sand Wraith, but since he barely has any gamepresence before he gets a Mock/Nullfire, the idea was rarely putten into effect. – Also Sand Wraith was very often banned, since he was simply “OP”.
Now, the most important part of this idea is that the opponent should get significant farm by either getting early Alchemist Bone’s (2x) or beating up a Runed Axe while your supporters have forest and ancients stacked. This usually leaves a wellfarmed Magebane/TDL-Carry with a solid 500+ GPM, and 10-15 minutes later, he would be fat enough to carry the game.
Example of this lineup:
In this lineup, you would try to get the short lane, and have one of your supporters stack for you in the forest, so once you hit one of your breakpoints in farm (Runed axe, Frostburn or Steamboots+Whispering Helm, Alchemist Bones - whatever you go for), you would be ready to boost your GPM additionally by clearing stats.
- Please note that the recent patch preventing tristacks has HEAVILY nerfed this lineup.

My guess on new patch lineup:

- This lineup calls for 2-1-2 lanes, where you would have your carry farm while the others were roaming around ganking. (Much similar to the ganking-lineup)

Pros

• You only have to focus on a single player getting farmed
• If the carry remains unharmed before he gets his Shrunken Head, he will be nearly impossible to deal with.
• Once the carry is well farmed, you can take teamfights without being 5, giving an advantage such as your 5th player can push a lane, or you could surprise them with a sneaky attack while your 5th reveal himself on another lane.

Cons

• Leaves the rest of your team pretty useless
• If a gank happens on the carry, the game can be lost within the time he/she is dead.
• The teamfights are usually lost before the carry hits the shrunken breakpoint.
• If the opponent wins a teamfight and then clears your stacked forest, you will drop soooo much in farmprogress, that it is very hard to recover from.

Tips:

• The supporters will need to stack a lot and avoid ganks with wards. You can stack multiple creepcamps by starting as :49 instead of the usual :53, just pull the creeps far enough away.
• If the opponent is going for a gankstrat, sometimes it’s useful ditching the Runed Axe, and go directly for Frostburn / Shrunken head.
• Have pharaoh/nymphora banned, as these are rapists to the strategy

How to counter: The best way to counter this setup, is with either a Pusher or a Ganker – The pusher can put so much pressure on the team, that it is nearly impossible to farm enough to carry the game. Another way to counter is to use the “Ganker”, by continuously focusing on the opponents hardcarry (as mentioned is the only hero worth much on the opponent side”, will force them to delay their lategame dominance, and sometimes completely vanquish it.
A hero like pharaoh can initiate on the carry with a barbed armor, where the initiators teammates can choose to either finish off the carry, or take out his teammates. Cursed Shield from Plague armor also helps a lot vs melee.

The pusher [5.0]
The pushing strategy is in general terms the easiest way to win a game. If done right, it will take on nearly any team, which is why it is known as a “newb-strat”.
Some pushstrats makes more sense than others, and some fits better together than others.
The general idea is to get as much goldadvantage early on, use your gold to gank a player, and then finish off a lane with barracks. If you fail to do so, you will most likely lose the game.
This strategy is very reliant on early pushes, which usually leaves you in a very good goldlead, however, a pretty lousy experience-situation, since you have to be 5 most of the time.
Example of this lineup: :fors:
You would put glacius/fa against their sololane, or dual lane - whatever they choose to go for, and then put your Ophelia in the forest. Eventually they will realize that a laneswap is required, if so, you will have to swap aswell, since your trilane will always be weaker than theirs. (If they dual lane, you can stick around)

- The idea about this lineup is to get some really early towerkills, taking you into a significant lead, and then use that gold to get very defensive items on defiler, along with an early Kongor.

Pros

• Lots of gold (Itemlead)
• Chances of early victory
• Easy to play
• Very hard to public teams to deal with
• If the opponent picks 2 semi/hard-carries, it’s almost impossible to defend.

Cons

• If enemy reads the strat, it is pretty easy to counter with the right heroes
• Lost if you're not allowed to push early
• Usually pretty bad teamfights when not pushing
• Lategame requires 1 gank before being able to push, which is not always easy to get.

Tips

• If you are in the lead, doing Kongor is sometimes a good idea. (Ophelia, Balphagore, Wildsoul very strong versus him)
• Use your gold wisely, Ring of the Teacher, Astrolabe, Barrier Idol, Staff of the Master – things like that makes a lot of sense when you wish to push. (don’t be scared of getting Astro on Wildsoul)
• Do not wait for farm, if you cannot push early, you cannot push at all – the lineup does not scale with levels compared to most opponent teams.
• If you want to push a lane early, and you only face a single or two heroes, you can pull your neutralcreeps without stacking it, that will leave you with 6-7 creeps able to push the tower. If you combine that with an early “Ring of the Teacher”, you can manage to grab off the tower before the enemy can defend it in any way.

How to counter: Countering this setup is difficult if you already made the wrong drafts. You usually want to go for 3 things: Blocking, Long-range harras, and damage-absorbation.
Recommended heroes for this: Andromeda, Behemoth, Pharaoh, Bubbles, Flint Beastwood, Soulstealer and Defiler. (A good initiate on a pushteam with a Defiler silence can win.

The unkillables! [6.0]
The idea behind this strategy is to make the heroes impossible to kill – this comes by having strong heroes and healers. This, if played right against the right setup, will make this team win every single out-of-lane teamfights, which should grant them a significant experience-advantage.
On the laningphase, these setups will usually have a slight advantage on lanes, unless faced by a gankstrat.
Example of this lineup:
In this case, you would put Accursed and Slither on the hard lane, and Armadon / Voodoo on the easy lane - Accursed and Slither should be awfully hard to kill, because of the sick harras Slither can provide, along with Accursed shield.
Armadon would eventually get beefy, and since Soul Reaper is one of the strongest midheroes, you should be good to go as soon as you have those defensive items covered.
(This lineup does not work if 5v4, you must be 5 at all time, so no ganking is involved here)

Pros

• Makes heroes very hard to kill without any significantly high burst damage or silence
• Should in theory win every single earlygame teamfight
• Has the ability to push with exceptional force, since this setup can heal creeps and such

Cons

• Has a limited carry potential, so if you do not “dominate” early, you won’t dominate at all.
• Gets raped by significant nuke and silence
• Is forced to be 5 players around each other most of the time. If they are 5, you must be 5 aswell.
• None of these heroes can handle themselves alone.

Tips

• Try to pick one of these heroes off before a teamfight occours. This will salvage them more than other setups.
• Do not try to kill without having a full lineup ready, if you do not finish him off with your combo + ulti, it will be wasted, since they will simply heal the target up again, and you will be with a cooldown.
• A silence on any of these healers can mean a whole lot to the teamfight.

How to counter

• Defiler, Vindicator, Bloodhunter and Bubbles are all very good choices – but don’t get more than 2 of these, as you simply won’t have enough damage if you get more.
• Heroes with high burst damage is what can rape them, I would suggest getting Pebbles / Chipper as for nuke, and possibly get TDL/Swift as a carry.
• Some might consider Magebane, but he requires a whole bunch of farm which is hard to get before they will start forcing teamfights.
• Countered by: The ganker, the initiator.

The tricarry[7.0]
The tricarry was very popular as a counter to the Hardcarry-strat. You usually place a ranged semicarry on all 3 lanes, this could be Valkyrie on the sololane, Arachna/CD/Soulstealer mid, and a FA/Flint/Puppet trilane with behemoth/magmus and a supporter. The idea is basically that you get a semi-decent farm on atleast 2 of the 3 carries, and as soon as one of them picks up a frostburn, the teamfights will turn into a juke-fight where the ranged carries can get forward and backward without being in fear of melee damage. (Leap, Puppetshow, Puppet Hold, Arachna Slow, Corrupted DamageDrain, Frostburn Slow, Valkyrie Leap, Valkyrie Ulti) – Things like that makes it very very easy to juke a single carry, and as mentioned in the Carrystrat – the setup only relies on a single player, not more than 1.
That is what makes the setup awfully strong.
Example of this lineup: :fors:
Here, you would put Forsaken, Glacius and Behemoth together, prefferably against their trilane, unless you realize that their trilane is harder than yours (Don't worry, this trilane is very very strong). Because of the Behemoth, you can drag the game for quite some time, which is very useful when you have 3x carries who all benefit from eachother's progress.
Being a very strong midhero, Arachna should be fine - you would probably have to sacrifice the Valkyrie to lose some farm, but that should be picked up on the other lanes.

Pros

• Very hard to kill the ranged heroes with a single-carry setup.
• Relatively easy to get a semi-strong farm when you’re ranged.
• Easy to escape ganks with these heroes
• Scales very well with gametime and items. (Frostwolf skull would make it over for the melee carry)

Cons

• Weak versus other setups than single-carry setups.
• Extremely weak against “The Initiator” and “The Pusher”.
• Requires farm before getting stronk.
• Sharing farm will get annoying if the opponent “Static-farms” (farming without pushing the lane)

Tips

• If you already have plenty on slow, as in Arachna / Puppet – it might be a good idea to avoid getting more than 1x Frostburn.
• In order to avoid stealing too much farm from eachother, let of the rangeds go Alchemist Bones
• Thunderclaw / Charged Hammer provides a whole lot of damage, and that might come in handy with this setup.
• Nullfire Blade can be very useful versus Shielders, Armorbuffers and heroes with a low manapool.
• In general: Try to combine your morph-attacks, some benefits all of you (Shieldbreaker)

How to counter:

• Initiators like Pharaoh, Hellbringer and Bubbles is very important to beat this setup
• Always try to focus the heroes without escape-mechanisms (Don’t focus a Valkyrie)
• Having more than 1x carry is very good – but if you really choose to only go for one, make sure he has some sort of blink or cc.
• Good nukers like TB will help earlygame a whole bunch versus this. Especially with Valkyrie invis, as TB ulti reveals her.

The –armor strategy [8.0]
This strategy makes it awfully hard to be a vulnerable player, since this strategy has some of the best sustained damage in the game.
The idea is to minimize the opponent armor, so that auto attacks and certain spells will deal a lot more damage than others. This strategy is very mobile, and does not require ultimates to be ready, in order to win a teamfight – it all depends on your situations and farm.
Example of this lineup:
This lineup calls for fast portal keys, so you would do your best not to let your pestilence face the opponents trilane, basically because many lineups would smash the trilane you have, so try to force them not to. (Upg courier is ideal here)
- When getting the pkey/chalice/boots-combo on Pestilence, you should start making progress.
A single kill can lead to a dead Kongor, the mass -armor makes him extremely vulnerable.
Pros

• Is not reliant on ultimates to be ready
• Lanes will be reasonably strong earlygame
• Has a lot of lategame potential
• Can do Kongor very fast and very early
• Has an ability to shut down opponent carries really fast

Cons

• Is very reliant on itempickups.
• Things like Barbed Armor is very strong against this setup
• Certain heroes like Keeper of the Forest and Plague Rider can really be a pain in the ass to this setup.

Tips

• Make sure to pick up portal keys on the coreheroes (Pestilence and Soulstealer)
• If you choose Predator in this setup, he will require both Frostburn and Shrunken Head in most situations in order to win
• Make sure you don’t let them have Plague Rider, it rapes the setup
• Soulstealer cannot get ganked or get shut down – he is the core and carry of this setup midgame. (Pkey + Shrunken very needed)

How to counter

• Plague Rider / KotF with the armor and slow/cc they can provide.
• A hero like Puppet Master is especially strong against this, because:
• Whispering Helm (Armor and Ice Ogre)
• Puppet Show on carries
• Shrunken head is very viable on him
• Ice ogre (weaker camps – the small blue ogre, provides a frostwolf-ish-armor which is simply underrated)

Other guides:
FJ’s bro code - http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/sh...d.php?t=230991
FJ’s guide to public domination – To be published
FJ’s guide to playing the middle hero – To be published
FJ’s guide to playing the carry – To be published
FJ’s guide to playing the support – To be published
FJ’s basic guide to competitive progress – To be published
FJ’s advanced competitive guides (+1900) – To be published

[[z]Genjuro]

Reserved

[[RCom]Megge]

Again, a well written guide by you, keep it going!

Just a question: How about mixing things up? I personally got the impression that for example in "the carry", your mid hero isn't anything special. I thought that putting a Pebbles in there to pressure the enemy team while your carry is farming isn't a bad idea, if you know what I mean.

[[z]Genjuro]

Again, a well written guide by you, keep it going!

Just a question: How about mixing things up? I personally got the impression that for example in "the carry", your mid hero isn't anything special. I thought that putting a Pebbles in there to pressure the enemy team while your carry is farming isn't a bad idea, if you know what I mean.

Thank you for bringing that up - that is actually the general idea behind the "Ganker" strategy.

It all depends wether the opponent goes for a very hard carry like SW or Madman, which can rarely be outcarried. (In this case, you could choose to go 5 gankers in order to shut him down completly)

[[Poni]kippetje]

Thank you for bringing that up - that is actually the general idea behind the "Ganker" strategy.

It all depends wether the opponent goes for a very hard carry like SW or Madman, which can rarely be outcarried. (In this case, you could choose to go 5 gankers in order to shut him down completly)

Don't forget it would be nice to get some pushing power with that so you can finish early (A)

[[CrLo]Banorac]

excellent guide.

[GuterWhine]

excellent guide.

Can't say much more than that.

Well written with an amazing amount of information. I would love it if you (or someone else with enough insight) would add something about the order in which heroes should be picked, responding to enemy picks and so on. Basically the whole underlying mindgame that plays into a draft.

It just seems very fuzzy at the level at which i play (1700+ normally), sure, one knows that some heroes counter others pretty hard ( vs. anyone?), but I (and most others) don't seem to have a clue about when to stick with a strategy and when to respond to the enemies picks.

But again, great guide, your work is highly appreciated!

[Jezu]

Thank you for bringing that up - that is actually the general idea behind the "Ganker" strategy.

It all depends wether the opponent goes for a very hard carry like SW or Madman, which can rarely be outcarried. (In this case, you could choose to go 5 gankers in order to shut him down completly)

But you could also pick a ganker carry (E.G Pesti, Swiftblade) =)

[[DLLM]iope]

Is there a general guideline for drafting? E.g. when you play match-making, what's a good general lineup? Sorry, I know this is very vague.

E.g. you should have 1 initiator (kotf), 1 support (ds), 1 hard carry (tdl), 1 semicarry for mid (hag), 1 tank

I always have problem picking a hero that will "complete" my team.

[[RCom]Megge]

Well I personally (playing > 95% 5v5 scrims in 1500-1800 bracket (our team is widely spread ...) with me doing the picking) prefer building the team around a certain strategy and key players.
Example:
Firstpicking allrounder like , etc is never a bad idea. If you see the enemy going a hard carry trilane you have to make a decision: Counter that trilane with an aggressive trilane or do a trilane yourself and try to outcarry them with a harder carry. (Advantage of a counter-trilane at long-lane is, that you can gank mid easier and push the long-lane tower fast, so you get map-control over their jungle)
Counter-trilane: 2.0.16 I'd definetely go -tri, now with the nerf ... + x trilane for rush :Portalkey: doesn't seem to be too bad (throw in or for ult / heal ( + ult is no fun)), -trilane, :fors: + / / + x isn't bad
Trilane yourself: Choose your carry - if you're getting something like or get some aggressive supporters, as both of them can gank pretty well if necessary, if you get a hard-carry consider turtle-style supporters. (Again, if the rest of your team is gank oriented, get aggressive ones)
Midlane: You're already having a hard-carry and they got a much inferior lategame? Get a ganker / midgame hero ( , , ...), they got an equal or better lategame -> do you need to beat them fast (ganker again) or can you outcarry them with dual carry (Soulstealer, etc.)? Do they have much squishys or a trilane? , , ...
Sololane: You need an initiator? ; Need magic dmg / gank potential? ; Need semi carry? etc.

This are just examples, I might not be right about every role ... as a rule of thumb: try to memorize which heroes are suitable for what trilane and if you often play with the same team, which strats you can pull off best and who can play which hero. If you're going into a game think about a strat. If their first picks or bans completely f**k you up - adapt, see what you can make out of your already picked heroes (-> pick versatile heroes first), maybe do something unconventional - it could work out. Ban adequate (if you are going for a / push strat, ban , If your going trilane, ban trilane-crushers like ). Try to read the opposite's team bans and picks, try to hide your strat with allrounder-picks if you are going for something easily counterable. It's all about adapting to the situation. (I love the picking-phase )
All in all: Try to know which hero excels at what role, which heroes synergize well and where your team's strengths lie (duno if that actually is a correct english sentence o.O )

PS: @iope: There is no "tank" in HoN, just beefy heroes, keep that in mind. And sucks (well he isn't bad, but there are heroes that fit the same role and just do it way better)
A good general lineup would maybe be (trilane / hardcarry): , / / / , :wreh: / , but it's all situational, this lineup for example suffers form having quite a low hp pool, so they will likely lose against a initiation / AoE heavy team. Putting a sololane will maybe hurt your gank / burst potential, but he is so great at counter-initiating, his ult would give that team enough time to burst down some of the enemy heroes. ( solo-longlane is a risky pick though, should be played by a player who knows, what he's doing)

[[z]Genjuro]

You should not base your lineup on getting "the perfect lineup" as per general.

You always need to watch the opponent-picks before you make your own lineup. Obviously you can have a general idea of what your picks will look like in the end, but you should never decide to get a semicarry if he's not fit into the team.

[[z]Genjuro]

Bump!

[QKO]

A -armor strat without dsham? It exists?o_O

[[E]Undutchable]

I would disagree with the Valk pick up on your -armor strat.

You suggest not going against the opposing trilane with your own trilane, but if Valk goes against their trilane, she will not pick up any items, and since you have a soulstealer and a pestilence, the odds of her getting enough farm to come back from that disadvantage isn't that high.
I know you pick a 3rd carry to make the most use of your -armor strat, i would suggest a hero like Pharaoh instead of Valk.
(it also gives you kong possibilities, more early game, more initiation (even without PK, so you're not that reliant on Pesti's farm anymore) and in a totally bad situation where neither valk or pharoah would be able to approach the enemies trilane (which is common in your tier of play) pharaoh can jungle a little bit to at least get some farm.

Happy to discuss though

[[RCom]Megge]

@Undutchable: Love your guide too, read all of them

Imho you could run as 3v3 with 3 stuns + 1 slow and leave valk 1v1, but that's a risky move. All in all I agree with you.

[[E]Undutchable]

@Undutchable: Love your guide too, read all of them

Imho you could run as 3v3 with 3 stuns + 1 slow and leave valk 1v1, but that's a risky move. All in all I agree with you.

Thanks, great to hear!

Yeah you could do that, but since he suggested it this way, i say this part of his strategy is fine, although i would say that a pesti is less item dependant then most other carries, therefore it should be put against the other trilane.

But since they suggested getting early pk, you shouldn't play valk.

Altogether, the only strategy that i looked at was wrong, depending on how he reacts to what i say now, i might look at the others to

[QKO]

I would disagree with the Valk pick up on your -armor strat.

You suggest not going against the opposing trilane with your own trilane, but if Valk goes against their trilane, she will not pick up any items, and since you have a soulstealer and a pestilence, the odds of her getting enough farm to come back from that disadvantage isn't that high.
I know you pick a 3rd carry to make the most use of your -armor strat, i would suggest a hero like Pharaoh instead of Valk.
(it also gives you kong possibilities, more early game, more initiation (even without PK, so you're not that reliant on Pesti's farm anymore) and in a totally bad situation where neither valk or pharoah would be able to approach the enemies trilane (which is common in your tier of play) pharaoh can jungle a little bit to at least get some farm.

Happy to discuss though

Isn't the point of the -armor strat that you don't need any real carries? Once Pesti reaches his shieldbreaker(and/or demonicbreasplate) and SS his demonic breastplate(and/r shieldbreaker) everyone on the team will be doing truedamage(or amplified damage). That should be more that enough to be painful.

this in my opinion would be a much better lineup for the -armor strat that can be used to both have trilanes and dual lanes. Remember that all the support heroes have to do to stay relevant is obtain frostburn if they are agility or sheepstick if they are int.

[[z]Genjuro]

I would disagree with the Valk pick up on your -armor strat.

You suggest not going against the opposing trilane with your own trilane, but if Valk goes against their trilane, she will not pick up any items, and since you have a soulstealer and a pestilence, the odds of her getting enough farm to come back from that disadvantage isn't that high.
I know you pick a 3rd carry to make the most use of your -armor strat, i would suggest a hero like Pharaoh instead of Valk.
(it also gives you kong possibilities, more early game, more initiation (even without PK, so you're not that reliant on Pesti's farm anymore) and in a totally bad situation where neither valk or pharoah would be able to approach the enemies trilane (which is common in your tier of play) pharaoh can jungle a little bit to at least get some farm.

Happy to discuss though

It's all about what fits the lineup

Valkyrie is a very solid counter to most opponent carryheroes, since you would usually throw yourself directly after a frostwolf skull.

Also the 5 second arrow-stun provides just as good a Kongor-opportunity as Pharaoh does.

Naturally i can see where Pharaoh would do wonders compared to Valkyrie - but as you pointed out yourself, sometimes its about getting as much out of your -armor strat as possible. In addition to that, Pharaoh is usually banned

[[E]Undutchable]

Ofcourse it's about what fits the lineup, but you're giving a general line-up here.

How long would it take her to get that FWS, in a normal game (or a game you're not winning) considering she's up against a (competent) trilane, where SS and Pesti still get the farm they need?

The reason i mentioned pharaoh can kongor as well as valk can, because you mentioned it before. I wasn't saying Pharaoh could do it better.
You said in your OP that the line-up could Kong. Switching valk for Pharaoh shouldn't prove a problem then.

The - armor strat is a valid point, but I wonder if an underfarmed and underleveled Valkyrie will really have more influence then a Pharaoh does, even with the - armor strat. (and yes, eventually she will, but i'm talking over the entire course of the game, not only 90 minutes in.)

And to say that Pharaoh usually is banned, it's kind of a random argument if you mention Pharaoh in another strat. If you want heroes that you can pick up consistently, then you should remove him from the other strat as well, to stay consistent yourself

Just for the fun of it, i promote this guide i wrote: http://hon.fo-c.us/?p=68

I wrote it quite a while ago, i think about 6 months... but I sadly didnt save the date so I can't be sure. It's somewhere along the lines on why I feel Valk is not the best pickup atm.

And believe me, I'm a fan of her, just ask Kip (<3 the good old days, Valk, Pharaoh, TDL/Mali + 2 Support <3)

[Genrou]

Great guide, +1 to premium.