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As Forsaken Archer player I easily have the option to push the first tier towers in should my opposing laning heroes be elsewhere or dead. Usually players will easily opt for a free tower kill, but will it really beneficial or detrimental to you and your team?
From my experience, it's been consistently detrimental. Allow me to explain.
FA's greatest weaknesses is her low hp and no escape skills (reliable at least). So let's say you're dominating the lane and you push down the tower. You deny the enemy farm, you manage to kill them a few times before the 8min mark, basically they got steam rolled. You take tower... now what?
If you continue pushing, you're literally putting up a sign saying "GANK HERE". As a semi carry, making yourself a target for the opposing the team is equivalent to you handing the game to them on a silver platter. So your only option here is to go to other lanes to gank, meanwhile pushing them, right?
That's great and all, but now you leave the lane you pushed in for free farm for the opposing carry. And if you have any clue as to how FA works, she is probably one of the weakest semi-carries in the game imo. Without having skills that scale into late game, any hero with decent/near equivalent farm can blow FA out of the water in carrying potential. The best way for FA to out carry other carries to out farm them, and hard.
So, the lane you were dominating and denying farm has completely changed. Their carry is free farming that lane, meanwhile you're force into team fights at other lanes and unable to farm as effectively because you're farming against three other heroes.
So why push to begin with? From what I've seen, keeping the lane unpushed allows the creep waves to be closer to your tower not only allows you to farm more safely, but to gank and deny the opposing hero farm more safely. Unless your team is optimizing for a push team; Balpha, Defiler, Polly, etc. Then pushing the towers in early game will just have a negative effect on you, the carry overall.
Does anyone agree? Disagree? I would love to get some direction on this, because from what I've noticed I've lost far more games when I push towers in early as opposed to keeping it around. I've considered the possibility of just bad teammates or bad luck here and there costing me those games but, I've been eyeballing this trend for so long now its just starting to finally hit me that pushing towers early = lose.
After giving careful thought to this, if one of the following is a yes then I think it would be more beneficial to destroy that tower, as opposed to keeping it around.
1) The opposing team's carry is NOT in your lane. Thus, leaving the lane for supports to farm isn't a problem as you go to the carry's lane to gank/deny him farm.
2) Mid is a hard ganker (Pebs, Dw), and reliable therefore, you can depend on him to gank ricers even after you have left the lane.
3) You have a pushing type of team, who depends on team fights to win. So despite pushing towers in and letting the carry farm the lane without worry, your team will be pushing as a 5 in other lanes forcing that hero to leave the lane and engage in team fights that will most likely result in them receiving little to no farm.
4) The rest of your team are struggling and are getting owned in their lanes. Though, it isnt your role to be ganking sometimes you "have" to because if both other lanes get completely face rolled and yours is the only one that won. Chances are, FA won't be out carrying 3 heroes with equivalent farm as her early onto the game.
Thoughts? What factors do you take into account before you push? Or do you just, say "lolfreetower"
Last edited by Genrou; 02-28-2011 at 11:38 AM.
(I'm assuming that all this discussion is with FA soloing mid) The way I look at it it is always advantageous to push the tower. If you get the last hit it's an immense amount of gold. Also, destroying the tower doesn't necessarily push the lane. You can always "hard deny" your creeps, attacking them as soon as they get less than half health to ensure your lane doesn't push up.
That being said you hit the nail on the head that FA is a carry that carrys by out farming other carries. Not only does the tower give a lot of gold but constantly farming the lane isn't as effective as going to the jungle and taking out some stacks with her skeles which are pretty much made for farming. FA is arguably the first hero to make the transition to ricing instead of farming the lane since the skeles don't cost any mana.
In summary, I typically take the tower mid when I have a good chance since it helps the team (even if I get the kill). If the lane somehow pushes up or it's apparent they have focused on ganking at any chance simply go farm the forest or gank a lane since she has great dps with the skeles and an aoe hold.
Anyways, just my opinion
I've pushed mid tower before 10 minutes as FA on numerous occasions. As long as you have good wards at top and bottom runes you can still farm middle pretty safely. just be vigilant of who goes missing from what lane. You can also throw some ganks at the sidelanes and push those towers if you're successful. another grand option is to pick up some lifesteal and hit the neutrals when you don't think you can continue farming middle.
Take the tower, it's always advantageous. Killing the tower doesn't make it any safer for them to farm, it actually makes it harder for them to farm, as they no longer have a tower to stand behind and are more susceptible to ganks. Your choice to leave the lane after the tower is taken is what causes an advantage in farm for them, but no one actually said you have to leave the lane.
Especially if it's the hard carry lane that you've pushed, you'll want to take that tower because it really limits where they'll be able to safely farm without being in danger of getting ganked.
You might argue that it causes his teammates to be alarmed and have to come defend their carry and that will cause their hard carry to be 'safer,' but really this allows you to be more aggressive on the other lanes and take more free towers as well.
It's always advantageous to take free towers because it gives you a huge gold advantage over the other team and gives you map control, allowing you to start putting up offensive wards to be more aggressive and continue to gank and put more pressure on the other team, easily making it a landslide victory.
There's a difference between taking a free tower, and keeping all the lanes pushed on the enemy side for them to free farm. A free tower is always beneficial, keeping the lanes pushed on the other side of the map isn't. The thing is there are ways to manipulate the creeps to reset them back to neutral position or getting them back to your side of the map in all lanes (except Hellbourne mid as far as I know) so again for the most part it's always beneficial.
Since you're saying that the enemy carry can be in your lane, it's safe to say that you're NOT going in mid in your example. (since you say he will outfarm FA, and there are not so many heroes that will static farm mid and farm harder then FA)
So, we have two different situations:
#1 You're the dedicated carry of your team. You will have a babysitter with you, against the opponents action lane, in your safe lane. This will mean that it's your job to outfarm the enemys' carry.
Taking down the tower means that your team will get a gold boost, both your mid and the other heroes in your team have the ability to be stronger in their lanes, therefore giving you the option to farm because of the fact that they can keep the enemy busy. Also your babysitter can help in other lanes since you can manage to stay in the jungle and stack for yourself (you won't be high level so tristacks take long to clear out, you don't need that much stacks at that point (<10 mins))
Also, you will get more XP because after the lane comes back (if your opponent cant static farm well, which usually happens in their short lane) you will be able to static farm, or flashfarm in and continue in the jungle, giving you more XP
On top of that, you can talk to your team and make your mid go gank top a lot, giving you mid and pushing that tower. If they respond by trying to kill you, you go back to the jungle (have wards protecting you) and if they defend their carry lane/safe lane (where your mid is fooling around) then you will be able to take mid tower. You can always port to assist your long lane, or the other way around.
Pushing towers is usually good if you can do it risk free.
Option #2
Here you're in the offensive lane. Usually not a good place for FA to be in, but in pubs you can end up here. Push for sure. Have defensive wards, but you will give your carry farm, your team gold, reduce their movement, reduce their vision, make it easier for your mid to gank their dedicated carry, and you can take some of the jungle to make up for the fact that you had to sacrifice CK to be aggressive.
Or, you can let your mid take the jungle, you push mid while your babysitter helps the bottom lane to push bot, and your mid can help at bot when necessary, making your enemies choose to defend mid or bot.
IMO, always push, it gives your team gold, and reduces the chance of being ganked. +pubs dont always have wards so they will have less vision, making it easier to gank them
My opinion
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When I first started playing DotA/Hon, I had the same mentality as you; pushing the tower early is not a great idea since you lose out on a lot of farm. This simply isn't true however. Map awareness and effective wards will allow you safe farm in lanes. Learn to stack creepcamps in the jungle (or ask a support to do it) since you can take those out pretty quickly with nuke/skeletons. You can also play a more active role after you push the tower, and gank a lane. Make sure you are always carrying a TP stone and TP to help your teammates when they get ganked (often times you can pick up a double or triple kill in situations like this, which is game changing). When you're done with the gank go farm the lane or closest jungle. etc etc.
Last edited by DrunkDoter; 03-01-2011 at 11:00 AM.
take the tower, make sure the entrance to your jungle is warded (buy the war yourself if you have to) and then jungle
1000 gold for your team is HUGE
In response to your question here is Genrou. Pushing a tower is always more beneficial and here is why.Originally Posted by Genrou
1. As you have already noticed or will come to notice lower lvl games people typically don't ward much. Consequently, map vision is more limited to just creep waves and allied players. So where am I going with this? Not only do you benefit from pushing mid early in the aspect that everyone on the team gets roughly 300-400 gold. You also manage to increase your team’s vision while denying even more vision from the enemy team.
2. Another big thing about pushing mid is that without that tower the enemy team loses a huge tp tower. Mid tower is huge for giving access to your enemies’ team in quick movement to fights that aren’t located right by a tower a top or bottom tower. It’s a central tower providing quick movement to fights in the river or in the jungle. Therefore any fights that happen near your mid tower provide your team with the advantage because it will take the enemy team much longer to tp in and help if a fight breaks out near your mid tower.
3. Many carries get into this mindset that they alone are they key to winning the game. The truth is you’re not (unless your sandwraith)….a carry plays just as much of an important role as the support on your team. Here’s a good analogy to help you understand, if you watch or understand football at all; a carry is the quarterback but without his linemen and other members of the team he is nothing. Again, where am I going with this? Your whole team getting several hundred gold is huge. That mean supports can buy things they need to keep you alive and to win team fights.
4. Having mid pushed in my opinion is possibly more beneficial than having another lane pushed early for this final point. Pushing mid doesn’t just give the benefits I mentioned but it also provides a new route for ganking. If the other team is using the jungle or you want to go thru their jungle to get the lane you can now do this undetected. So it adds another element of possible aggression for your team to use and abuse! Ultimately, this puts even more pressure on the enemy team providing your team with new tools to use for your advantage.
hmm, if you can find it you should check out the old ping pong theory analysis from DOTA.
It is very in depth and will answer your question.
a fast tower + dominance in mid as fa --> get whispering helm --> use to stack ancients and take out the jungle, have wards up and take out middle creeps if they push up, gank side lanes if they over play.. you'll thereby recieve 350-400 gpm easily. also if you ward up really good and their mid hero can't kill you feel free to apply pressure in middle since this will either force the enemies to leave their side lanes which means that your lanes will have an easier time or they'll just stay in their side lanes while you free farm mid and perhaps even get another tower.
Thanks for your opinion, I forgot to mention static farming in my post. Despite you being able to keep your lane as pushed back as far as possible, the problem I see with static farming is it doesn't maximize your potential farm as opposed to like you mentioned, using skeles to farm. Not to mention, nothing is stopping the other side from static farming either and they actually have an advantage since their lane is now longer to static farm even harder with. Also, this applied to just about any lane.
As much as I love grabbing lifesteal to jungle effectively with fa, I find far more beneficial to stick to Frostwolf. She just becomes so much more powerful when she has that, I suppose you could buy and sell later but it seems like rather a waste of money. I'm not sure if its worth it, I'm not a numbers kinda of guy.
The only problem with that is, assuming you have strong gankers on your team or even a team that will take advantage of that pushed in tower. It saddens me alot when I see hard carries farming no where near their tower but as a hero like FA she doesn't have the ability to solo gank safely. Same goes for offensive wards, it sucks when you get supports who you have to ask for the standard rune wards, so its hard to find ones that will place offensive wards. Nonetheless, you're right, map control really is the key to every game.
Thanks for the advice, I tend to play more of a defensive kind of carry and try not to grab too much attention early in the game but I guess I can stray from that kind of playstyle if they start to bunch up in the lane that got pushed.
Thanks for your contribution everyone, it seems everyone agreed on a "Yes, take that tower" choice.
As for, Undutchable and shoofy, those are great tips. I'll be sure to use it in my next game.
Much appreciated everyone,
Genrou
there is no problem with pushing a tower early, if u were dominating the lane, push the tower.
FA can be a semi carry, and a powerful one, but owning ur lane, gaining the advantage, then going and doing the same in the other lanes will benefit ur entire team much more then u staying in the middle lane and farming.
obtain ur items earlier by gaining the additional gold from pushing the tower, go to the other lanes, help ur team owning their enemies in the lane, and push their tower as well.
a major note that u should pay attention too, if ur team has a very early and good lead on the enemy team, abuse it to the max, push strong and hard, and aim to end the game with the lead that you have, dont let them turtle too hard to be able to catch up to you.
pushing all their 1st outter tower, dont go and sit in the jungle farm, be active, go around, gank, and push more, never let them catch up, but the same time, dont suicide on the towers, dont let yourself open to their entire team coming and genocide you if u give them the chance, because that could turn the game around quite easily.
< thanks to Viole !
Used to be known as PowNigga, but after a year of using it, it was found "Inappropriate" >_>
That's what is kind of scary, if my team has more carries than pushing heroes or they have more aoe heroes and better intiation than my team does. Well, wouldn't trying to force a confrontation be a bad idea? Even worse, FA is such an easy target unless you get some farm in and get some survivability. That's what worries me the most about early game pushing without a team that can support it so well. Let's say the opposing team has a set up along the lines of; behemoth, tempest, ss, pesti, and voodoo. It's team set ups like that really makes me want to just wait until they arent in the lane, then try and push real hard solo than team push.
This. I'm so sick of losing games where we have an early game advantage simply because my team is so retarded and just farm all game. Newsflash: While you're farming all game, they're farming all game too. After 30 minutes of farming from both teams, that early-game advantage won't matter anymore. Exploit this advantage while you can, gank often and try to get the tier 2 towers if you can.
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