|
|
I almost strictly play intelligence heroes, usually Tempest, and have horrible trouble when paired up with a decent scout. I nearly always play with my brother and even then a decent scout can manage to get me. The obvious counters never seem to work.
Wards- These are only helpful for a strict area of effect, and when its scout this severely limits its usefulness. Since you are limited in the amount you can carry, and the area of stealth reveal is somewhat small it makes it difficult to survive a scout ambush. Perhaps part of the problem here is bad placement.
Dust- These seem to be viable if you are a tougher hero that can take more than 3 shots. By the time he stealths and hits me and I release the powder im already at 50% health most likely. From here on out its easy to follow up with a cross bow kill after the dust expires.
Eye- Very expensive to farm in NONE em games and not really viable to carry as an int hero.
What are my options, what am I doing wrong, and how can I really improve my game against stealth based classes?
Also another predicament. In NONE em games its vital to stay in the lane as long as possible. When your partner is heading back should you just tower hug until they get back and forfeit the gold/xp you would get by remaining the lane? Because it seems every time I risk going out by myself when my lane partner is missing results in death.
Well usually when you are playing Tempest, you're supposed to jungle, not lane. Because you're one of the best junglers out there, what with your elementals and all, it's expected you will get Portal Key by 10 minute mark or so. At that point you're to go into team fights, blink to the middle of the enemy and black hole 3+ enemy heroes (maybe meteor before black hole if you think you're good enough), while your team pounces away on them. That's your job.
Of course, when you are Tempest, other team should be looking for you in the jungles if you're not in a lane. I guess Scout would get you that time too, but wards would work out fine here, since he doesn't have creeps to give him field of vision while you're jungling away. Yes, as Tempest and jungling, watch out for ganks on you.
And don't worry too much about scout. You ward him, you diminish his usefulness a lot, but it doesn't mean he's useless. It's just de facto that he's an annoying sniper usually. Try to get your portal key and do your job: black hole the other team. If you get 4 killed from black hole but not scout, scout is quite useless at that point. You did your job, and now your team pushes - scout can't do anything.
Last edited by atpxlyst; 09-16-2009 at 12:34 AM.
The counter to any stealth hero is disables (aside from true sight items). Once they pop up, grab/stun them and pound on them. If you did enough damage they will think twice about doing it again.
If you are having trouble laning, ask yourself the following:
1) Did I prepare myself for the lane? Regeneration is key for all heroes. I always bring a hp potion, for example, to my lane unless I'm playing a hero where mana potions are more efficient like jeraziah or hellbringer. A mana battery would probably be a good item against scout since he is going to cast a lot of stealths which should give you charges.
2) Am I being hit by creeps? A good player is only hit by creeps if doing so will grant a kill or doing so will likely lead to some amazing harassment / a future kill.
3) Am I effectively pulling creeps? Pulling is where you pseudo-attack enemy heroes to get "aggro" from the creeps and pull them towards you and your tower. You don't want to pull creeps into your tower, but rather that ideal spot where they are right outside of your tower's range. You should not get hit when you pull creeps, it eliminates the entire purpose.
4) Am I laning as efficiently as possible? What I mean by this, is are you pushing, or are you keeping the lane as close to your tower as you can? Do not auto attack opposing creeps EVER unless you are doing so to regen with a life leech or deliberately pushing a tower in mid-late game. Only last hit. For tempest, if you're using your elementals, use them to deny or last hit, and then do not let them auto attack anymore. Pushing the lane doesn't help your cause, and you should be able to last hit effectively without them. If you're really having trouble, start auto attacking your own creeps when they are sub 50%, but make sure you don't give your opponent any last hits. This will help get the lane closer to your tower, where you should have no problems.
5) Am I harassing at every opportunity? As a ranged hero, you should be able to harass scout a little bit, though he is one of the most effective early game melee laners. Don't harass him at the expense of your own hp, but if he wants to last hit, deny, or auto attack creeps make sure you can get a few auto attacks of your own in. Sometimes this means flanking around forest to get a few hits in...sometimes it means you can't do anything, but always be thinking about it.
Quite frankly, between pulling and delaying you should be able to get any creepwave wherever you want in most pub games. If you're still having trouble, you can always jungle as tempest (though stay high, because scout might hunt you down).
Last edited by Archatype; 09-16-2009 at 01:04 AM.
In the lane scout cannot kill you if you have sufficient regeneration. His only method of damage is to hit and immediately vanish again. That means you will take a little damage every 15 seconds if he decides to sacrifice any chance of last hits. Get enough regeneration to be able to sustain yourself against that and you will not have a problem.
By the time he gets level 6 just make sure to stay with teammates and have some health items. 2 bracers will counteract his ult until level 11. If you have enough health to withstand his ultimate and 1 or 2 vanish attacks, and you have dust/wards, then he can't do anything to you unless he ganks with teammates, in which case it will be a team battle since you should be with teammates as well.
Tempest is probably one of the worst heroes to fight scout because of his low health, the fact that his stun will not deal damage if the target is no longer visible, and because he likes to jungle. But it still shouldn't be much of a problem.
Well like I said the problem with warding to reveal him in stealth is that the ward, or two, are confined to a very small area. As soon as you decide to push without a partner and leave the proximity of your ward(s) your pretty much gambling with life.Originally Posted by atpxlyst
Lets suppose I wasnt playing a very good jungle character, in this situation do you forefit precious gold and experience by simply hugging your tower waiting for creeps/scout to come to you, or do you press on anyways and hope you can farm some before scout gets you?
Also, how would you suggest jungling as tempest? E.g. What level, what items? Obviously points in elementals here
Last edited by PerfectBlue; 09-23-2009 at 07:23 PM.
Well my general beginning item selection is x1 set rune of blight, x3 mana potions, x1 health potion, and the rest are minor rune totems. I can tell you right now he can harass me enough simply with stealth that both eating trees/ passive health regeneration the rune provides are simply not enough to keep my health up. And again that is assuming he is ONLY vanishing to hit me and run out every time its off cool down.
What did you have in mind, or what am I doing wrong?
Last edited by PerfectBlue; 09-23-2009 at 07:24 PM.
It's really hard to counter Scout as Tempest 1vs1. That's why you simply should avoid that situation.
Until lvl 6 he shouldn't be a threat to you, he will have enough problems staying alive at his lane and his damage is too low to kill you when you back off to a tower.
As soon as he has his ulti, you should have yours as well and be on the road ganking enemy heroes. If you stay in the forest waiting for him to ambush you -> your fault.
After portal key you can go for a Totem or Shrunken Head to ensure you can escape him (he innitiates, you disable him + blink away; his ulti doesn't work against shrunken, so just use it when you see him channel and blink away).
Try playing a scout for like 10 games so you get a better feel for his weaknesses, this is what i normally do when i'm annoyed by heroes.
So the solution in this case is jungle to 6 as fast as possible and then get back to a lane with a partner? I dont think its possible to jungle portal key that fast.
accursed is pretty much a hard counter to scout
his shield makes scout wary to backstab him, and his ultimate can be popped on just before scout shoots his arrow
edit: Forgot that you liked intellect heroes. sorry
Although most of the other responses were correct as well, I think this is the easiest and most flexible way to counter any kind of stealth or gank, especially in low-mid tier games. If you're Legion, go Bot Lane, if you're Hellbourne, go Top. These are the defensive lanes, on which you can pull off tower hugging without losing exp/gold if you follow the advide above.
Also, if you're laning with your brother, let him pick a counter for scout if you prefer Int. Pestilence, Accursed, Jereziah and any kind of heal springs to mind.
Ultimately, against a good Scout you're probably going to die a few times as an INT hero unless you simply leave the lane and go with your allies. That's usually okay; Scout doesn't scale all that well with items, and once you start pushing with your team his ability to harm you is basically nil. As Tempest, your job is to farm your portal key and then start pushing to develop teamfights that you can dominate with your ult.
Scout can't do squat in team battles. The earlier the game turns that direction, the better.
Pick pestilence.
Ult scout.
Flight.
Stun.
Pwn.
Vanish spam is really annoying because tempest has zero lane presence so whichever hero you partner with will have to do 99% of the control on Scout which isn't the easiest thing to do. Also wards work very well if you're not terrible and keep the creep line relatively in the same place.
Using wards is actually useful if you're aware of the map at all... You can keep your creeps in proximity of the wards by last hitting/denying. If you auto attack then yes, you will soon be out of range of your wards. Though as Tempest, you have your elementals to take one creep away from either your or their side easily. If you're laning with Tempest then this is pretty much the only way to survive early game against a good scout.
Then again a good scout should be leveling his eyes, so you should be watching for him placing them close to your wards.
Yes thats part of the problem, as I said earlier problem with warding to reveal him in stealth is that the ward, or two, are confined to a very small area. As soon as you decide to push without a partner and leave the proximity of your ward(s) your pretty much gambling with life. So I suppose you are supposed to let the extra line of creeps go out of your reach and wait for them to come to you and your wards so you can farm knowing that scout wont be able to surprise you?
No, you're supposed to not push the line and keep it close to your wards towers. This is done by creep pulling and judicial last hit/deny control.
If ignored, two creep lines meeting together will generally continue to fight close to the same point while gradually shifting the line each time one side's creep becomes the sole remaining creep and pushes to the opposing team's tower (as that creep will delay the opposing team's creep line allowing his creeps to push up further). This will be a shift ultimately until the creepline pushes all the way to a tower and gets decimated, at which point the other team's creeps will push further up.
Heroes in the lane can manipulate this by preventing any stragglers from their team pushing forward after the line breaks through denying them and by keeping the line close to their tower by creep pulling (intentionally aggroing them by targetting a hero and then moving away to pull them in the direction you want them to go).
Very good post thank you dreamex.
When scout vanishes and tries to chain vanish he is relinquishing control of the creep wave to you for a several seconds. Try to get in your denies or a few last hits. He'll likely give up lots of money if he tries to vanish all the time. Denying is more important, and don't auto attack. Get in one deny with your regular attack, then deny the next creep with elementals, then try last hitting a creep or denying the last one before retreating. You want their wave to push to your tower where you can limit the scout's mobility. This is why denying is more important. After the 10 or more seconds of scout having vanished you may want to retreat a bit to wards or tower. This is around the time he strikes because his cooldown on vanish is nearly up, so he can chain vanish.
If you have to use a homecoming stone to get more healing, do it and get back in the game. If you need a break from scout, let him push the lane a bit while you jungle with elementals. Start to build strength bracers or buy boots. Your lane partner if you have one will get some solo exp. As mentioned in the thread already, as an int hero scout shouldn't be solo'd against. After early game scout is easily countered by being dusted and stunned\slowed to death. Electrician, Pollywog Priest, Devourer, Arachna, Succubus, Pestilence, glacius and anyone with good disables or strong snares will destroy him.
Posting Permissions
