Is there a technique to drafting a stronger team regardless of whether you get the first pick or not? I'm not looking for a way to guarantee 100% the better team, but sometimes it seems like even picking pretty decent heroes who would appear to work well together my team is still getting outlaned/outfarmed/outplayed (the last thing can't be helped without more experience, I know). For example, what kinds of heroes do you want to take, and in what order? Do you want to secure the strongest Solo mid for your first pick? Or a disabler? Or a carry etc.?
I know you should generally pick certain heroes before others (ie. get Electrician before/same time as Jereziah/Hammerstorm so as to prevent purging, Get Pest before picking NH etc.), but in what order do you usually want to secure the different roles of your team?
I guess most carries can be slotted in last, as they're semi interchangeable, but you probably want to try to plan lanes even with the fairly short time you get to actually pick.
I think picking a strong dual lane (e.g. Pyro and Magmus) together works pretty well.
Picking Jereziah and Electrician at the same time is certainly a good idea (And those two make a good lane too).
If there's Pestilence in the pool I wouldn't pick Night Hound at all, because having two of them on the same team means two melee carries that need babysitting. Maybe if they had first pick, and they didn't pick Pestilence take him last.
Picking Glacius + a spammer that can utilise his aura (Thunder Bringer, Defiler or even the deadly solo mid Madman all fit into this category).
In some situations getting first pick is not an advantage at all (e.g. when there are three heroes that just stand above the rest of them, you're only going to get one and the other team is going to take the other two).
in terms of securing the better team i look out for the following.
Tempest being the strongest, then you want your mid solo making Defiler an amazing choice because of Silence & Ghosts for lategame.
Then your left with the awesome support heroes like Jereziah, Nymphora, Electrician etc.
In drafting you should always consider what your opponent thinks about the hero pool and what he is likely to pick.
Thus, in a PUB, there is no way to know the preferences of the enemy players, so it's pretty hard to guess that. They might think Arachna is a first pick material, or Defiler, or Tempest, or Magmus, you will never know.
Overall, however, the "OP" heroes, i.e those that are picked every pub game are known:
Behemoth, Thunderbringer, Magmus, Tempest, Defiler, Madman, Arachna, Jereziah, etc.
Rules of Random Drafting:
Always pick the strongest initiator in a pool. Particularly if there are few initiators.
Always pick the strongest AoE heroes in a pool. Particularly if there are few AoE heroes.
Pick a utility and carry.
Generally speaking anyways, there's exceptions, such as if the pool is entirely bad melee heroes you should first pick the only decent ranged hero. Or if your lineup is made entirely of spam casters you should consider midpicking Glacius and vice versa, if your opponent picks two strong spam casters you may consider midpicking Glacius to deny him that boon.
Picking heroes in pairs can work too as long as they will fit into your overall build, which should be 1 initiator, 2 aoe/gank, 1 disabler/utility, 1 carry.
While most of the picks that I would choose are draft dependent, there is always one hero you first pick over EVERY hero regardless of draft and that's Defiler. Even if that means they get Tempest Jereziah, or Tempest Magmus, regardless this is always the best choice.
Other good first picks are really dependent on the pool, but I'll try to make simple list to show you who I'd pick over what else.
But then again, it all depends on the RD pool. You know what, I'll go ahead and make an example pool and show you my thought process.
Alright, so first of all, as I said I'd always first pick Defiler.
Now the opposing team gets two picks, and I'm not really concerned about them getting jereziah+cm because that leaves Electrician open for a pick, he's a direct counter to jereziah. I'm also not too concerned about jereziah+Electrician because that leaves CM+Arachna/Madman open, two upper tier agility heroes capable of buying and benefiting from nullfire blade. So for the sake of arguement, let's assume they choose Jereziah+CM.
As my pick, I would now choose Hellbringer(a very strong hero and initiator) and electrician(counter to jereziah), as I no longer need an agility hero to get the nullfire.
If I were once again the other team, I'd choose Madman and Axe, they're just extremely strong heroes with CMs aura and Axe can jungle leaving two solo positions up. I also know that the other team already has a carry, so it's slim they'd pick arachna, which I can choose later on since I lack a carry.
To finalize team 1, I'd choose Nymph QoP, synergizes well with the team as it's a lot of burst damage and healing, in addition to a powerful disable. All of this damage can be amplified by Hellbringer, and as I said earlier I don't need a carry.
And as my last pick with team two, I'd choose arachna. We don't have a carry, it leaves our lanes very strong, the only problem is the other team has Defiler(auto win in most circumstances).
So it'd be on Sentinel:
Top: Hellbringer QoP
Bot: Nymph Electrcian
Bot: CM Jereziah
Top: CM Axe
Bot: Arachna Jereziah
Last edited by Glorify; 09-09-2009 at 11:50 AM.
I'd do things a little differently actually based on your initial picking structure to better utilize Glacius' Aura.
Team1 Pick - Defiler
A great pub pick, a little overrated in some cases, but this pool has no strong push presence (most of HoN doesn't actually) so it's a good solid first pick.
Team2 Pick - Jereziah / Glacius
Fair pick, Jereziah forces the opposing team to pull Nullfires or Electrician, guaranteeing you a certain advantage. Glacius is taken to boost Jereziah and deny Defiler.
Team1 Pick - Hellbringer / Electrician
Electrician is taken to counter Jereziah, Hellbringer is chosen for initiation and as a strong lane presence. No brainer, agree with you so far.
Team2 Pick - Axe / QoP
It's a bit iffy here, if you don't take Axe you give Team1 the option that they may take the best jungle hero since their solos are lined up already, if you don't take QoP, you lose the only remaining aggressive spam happy caster that can really make use of Glacius aura. If you take both you may lose out on Madman, who is the strongest carry in this pool with Glacius, but he's relatively weak without early mana support. From that approach, it's in my opinion, unlikely that Team1 will take Madman except to deny it to Team2, which is win-win, either you get him later or you get a hero that has to work for his mana early. Even if they take Madman you still have Moon Queen that can carry and lane control early with the Aura Support.
Team1 Pick - Nymphora / Moon Queen Or Andromeda Or Madman
Here's where Team1 has a tough pick, if they take MQ they pick up another nuke-heavy carry which can synergize similarly to how QoP did with better carry potential and worse gank potential. If instead they choose Andromeda for her Gank/Initiation potential they give up some of their carry potential. Both choices are okay substitutes for QoP along with Nymphora. Madman pick is to deny him to Team2, but that's a weak pick considering you already have a suitable carry in Defiler and Madman will have to invest a lot in mana to be useful early on, creating another weak lane (though you do have Hellbringer to Babysit)
Team2 Pick - ????
You need a carry, and depending on the board it's going to be either Madman, Moon Queen, or Arachna, in that order. Madman/Moon Queen are much better laners than Arachna when they have Glacius to abuse their skills, but Arachna makes a consideration if Team1 takes MQ and Team2 doesn't want to run a melee carry.
Top - Hellbringer + (Moon Queen or Andromeda or Madman)
Mid - Defiler
Bot - Electrician + Nymphora
Top - Moon Queen
Mid - QoP
Bot - Jereziah + Glacius
Jungle - Axe
Top - Glacius
Mid - QoP
Bot - Jereziah + Madman
Jungle - Axe
Feel free to critique my picks as well, perhaps you see something I don't.
Picks might look like this (assuming nonpush strat):
1. Defiler, 4. Legion, 5. Electrician, 8. Moon Queen, and 9. Jester.
2. Jereziah, 3. Arachna, 6. Hellbringer, 7. Glacius, and 10. Pred.
1. Defiler, 4. Legion, 5. Hellbringer, 8. Moon Queen, and 9. Nymphora.
2. Jereziah, 3. Arachna, 6. Chronos, 7. Jester, and 10. Hag
Last edited by TerranEarth; 09-10-2009 at 02:12 AM.
ALWAYS pick synergy before powerhouse. You want to ensure that you control at least one lane. Pick one duo that can lane very well together. I also would recommend one jungler, so that you get 2 solos, so you'll have two heroes that level faster than the rest. The lane duos highly depend on their ability to be able to FB and kill their opposing lanemates early on so that they keep up with the mid and alternate solo lane.
I.E. Jereziah + Magmus, or Polly + Swiftblade, you can be assured those lanes will be controllable. If you dominate both lanes with a strong combo early on, it will make recovering for the other team harder later on.
Finally, pick a strong mid solo character. Soulstealer, Succubus, Defiler, Zeus, are all awesome mids and have sufficient ganking ability, but also make sure your mid is your most adept player as it requires good rune control and skill at harassing.
Thanks for all the tips, they make a lot of sense now that people have outlined why they would make the choices they do. I have another question: What heroes/skills are the strongest initiators? The only initiators I can think of are Behemoth, Tempest, Legionnaire, Keeper Of The Forest, and Hellbringer, mostly because of their ability to disrupt the enemy when they're pushing as a team of 5. Often I find myself/my team without the ability to stop the opponent when they're moving as a group of 5, usually resulting in us sitting around trying to get an opening to use our skills, then getting crushed.
Example ways to go with a random draft with what other people think.
I will put another one up tomorrow for every one interested.
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How do you pick the bans in those examples? Don't you typically want that hero on your lineup if you ban it? Are bans usually chosen based on the other team's players? (ie. you know they have a strong Magmus player so you ban it to stop them from playing him)
CD is Captain's Draft, where each team has an assigned captain and they go by the same draft order except with ALL the heroes and a set of specific bans.
I don't believe that HoN has CD implemented, it was a popular team vs team format in DotA.
Bans are decided at the beginning of the match before the drafting process and typically you will ban heroes that directly counter whichever strategy you want to employ or ban heroes that were too overpowered/broken at the time.
I disagree a lot with how the above poster drafted that pool because there's next to no synergy between the heroes and it feels like weak counterpicking from both teams.
To simplify things, there are certain heroes that are known as "first picks".
These heroes are uusally the heroes who are currently (depending on patch) the most usefull heroes for the team.
I can say already now that they are mostly: Thunderbringer, Glacius, magmus, Defiler.
Other important first picks are: Tempest, Soulstealer, jereziah, torturer and behemoth.
After the first 2-3 picks have been done, the last 2-3 picks should be to optimze the lanes and teambattles in other words, the kind of heroes that your team lacks.
DO NOT PICK LANES WHEN YOU PICK 2 HEROES AND SOLO WHEN YOU PICK 1. This is a newbie mistake of picking, it totally gives away your strategy and that's not the worst part... It makes you pick ther heroes in the wrong order.