Thread: Vindicator Changes

View Poll Results: Should these changes be Implemented? (please read my commentary first)

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  1. #1

    Vindicator Changes

    was originally Silencer from Dota. In Dota he was a hard carry. In HoN though, Vindicator is a very small niche pick. Although he has his uses, I would like to see more versatility added to him as I rarely see him played.

    Color Codes: nerfed things are indicated in red, buffs/additions are indicated in green


    Sages Lore:

    Type: Magic
    Range: 700
    Radius: 350
    Cast Time: 0.9 Seconds
    Mana Cost: 100 / 115 / 130 / 145
    Cooldown: 15.0 Seconds
    Required Level: 1 / 3 / 5 / 7
    Activation
    Applies Sage's Lore to all enemy heroes in the radius for 7 seconds.
    Sage's Lore Effects
    14 / 26 / 40 / 57 Magic damage per second.
    Drains 7 / 13 / 20 / 28.5 mana per second.
    If the target casts a spell, the mana drain effect is removed and the total damage dealt to the target by Sage's Lore is subtracted by 300% of the spell's manacost.
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Although Vindicator has a very strong laning phase presence, the introduction of :chal: has removed most of his laning harassment potential. He needs something to compensate and perhaps help the ability scale better.

    Currently Sage's Lore deals a total of 98/182/280/399 damage with no spellcast. With this change, a spellcast decreases the total damage dealt overtime instead of removing the damage effect (mana loss is still removed). To remove all of the damage of Sage's Lore, 33/61/93/133 mana spent in spells is required.

    Let us examine the implications: Imagine a laning against a . With the current skillset, Vindicator could cast rank 1 Sage's Lore and Moraxus would spend 30 mana to throw a single axe. With the proposed change Moraxus could still do the same with a single axe (and take a negligable 8 damage over 7 seconds); However, under the current skillset, a could cast rank 4 Lore and could still throw a single axe for 30 mana to negate the entire ability.

    With the new change, however, has to make a decision. He can choose to throw a single axe to negate the mana drain but he would still take 309 damage. He could choose to throw 2 axes but take 219 damage, he could throw 3 axes but take 129 damage, OR he could choose to use Quake and Negate ALL of the damage. The point of this change is to make the opponent THINK about what he wants to cast. No longer is Sage's Lore just a HURR DURR click that 30 mana cost ability when you see a blue light. It is now risk (how much mana to spend and what ability to waste) vs reward (how much damage is negated). Noobs will often make the wrong decisions whereas Pros will intuitively know how much damage they can shrug off.

    You could say that this change makes him too powerful against the heroes he already counters during the laning phase; however, I contest that. Let us examine a 2nd scenario of a vs :chro:. Currently is strong against :chro: because he lacks a low cost, spammable active ability. Chronos only has time leap which costs 135 mana. With the change, Time Leap still cancels out a rank 4 Sages Lore completely as 135 *3 = 405 which is greater than the 399 damage dealt by Sage's Lore. This change does not make more powerful against the heroes he already counters but rather lets him, with higher ranks of Lore, to do something against those heroes who have spammable abilities (albeit lore against them is still much less effective).

    Also note that the manacost on Sage's Lore has been increased to compensate for the increased functionality. (also primarily to offset some mana regeneration from the 3rd ability change).


    Master's Incantation:

    Type: Attack
    Range: 600
    Cast Time: 0.9 Seconds
    Mana Cost: 30
    Cooldown: 2.0 / 1.0 / 0.0 / 0.0 Seconds
    Required Level: 1 / 3 / 5 / 7
    Activation
    Deals 30%/40%/50%/60% of the Vindicator's Intelligence in bonus True damage when attacking
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Currently, lower ranks of Master's Incantaiton do almost laughable damage. The damage from early ranks has been increased by a factor of 100%/33%/11%/0%; however, note that the manacost has been increased by a constant factor of 100% to compensate (which makes this ability synergize with the 3rd ability change; see below). The point of this change is make leveling master's incantation more viable during the early game phase. It helps differentiate the choice to play a carry Vindicator and a support Vindicator. While the increased damage bonus on rank 1 may seem like a lot, remember that every poke with Master's Incantation means 30 less mana (which adds up fast) for Sage's Lore.


    Inscribed Glyphs:

    Required Level: 1 / 3 / 5 / 7
    Gives the Vindicator 2 Auras that he can toggle between. Only 1 aura can be active at once.

    Glyph of Silence:

    Aura Activation
    Any enemy hero the Vindicator can see and who casts a spell while in range of the Aura is Silenced for 1.00/1.75/2.50/3.25 seconds. Only applies to visible enemy heroes. Enemy heroes dies within a 800 radius will permanently lose 1 Intelligence while Vindicator permanently gains 1.5 Intelligence.
    Aura Effects
    Radius: 800
    Target: Enemy Heroes

    Glyph of Power:

    Aura Activation
    Any allied hero the Vindicator can see and who casts a spell while in range of the Aura has a 15%/25%/35%/45% chance to have half of the spell's manacost refunded. Restores full mana for attack modifier abilities. Only applies to visible allied heroes. Enemy heroes dies within a 800 radius permanently will lose 1 Intelligence while Vindicator permanently gains 1.5 Intelligence
    Aura Effects
    Radius: 800
    Target: Allied Heroes
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Like the 2nd ability change, this change helps to further differentiate the playstyles of support and carry. As I mentioned earlier, the manacost of Master's Incantation was increased to 30 to offset the increased damage output from earlier levels. This makes sustained rate of fire with Incantation unfeasible until the very end of a game, that is of course unless you choose to activate the mana regeneration aura instead.

    This is all about options. You can choose between defense and offense. If you choose to activate glyph of power instead of glyph of silence, you give yourself and your lane partner increased harassing potential; however, you make yourself vulnerable to heroes with combos such as ,,. It would add a lot of depth and synergy to Vindicator IMO without making him more powerful.

    Note that the intelligence gain has been reduced to compensate for the increased versatility of choosing between 2 auras and the additional strength of early levels of Master's Incantation (i.e. he needs less int growth to offset the increased viability of carrying).

    Final Chapter:

    Type: SuperiorMagic
    Cast Time: 0.9 Seconds
    Mana Cost: 250 / 350 / 450
    Cooldown: 160.0 Seconds
    Required Level: 6 / 11 / 16
    Activation
    Applies Final Chapter to all enemy heroes for 3 / 4 / 5 seconds.
    Final Chapter Effects:
    Silence

    This ability can be boosted by Staff of the Master.
    Staff Effect: Increases the duration of silence to 4 / 5 / 6 seconds.
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Not much reasoning to the addition of the staff effect except that I feel that SOTM should boost 's ult. Most s will not bother with SOTM after this change but instead go for other support items like sheepstick or Kuldra's; however, having the option does not hurt. This last change really is not necessary but if you have a terrible early game and become an ult stick, might as well grab a SOTM.




    Conclusion:

    With these changes I predict 3 common playstyles:
    Lane Dominance Build:
    - Vindicator initially skills Sages Lore followed by his Aura. He uses Glyph of Power to help his mana efficiency so he can spam an extra two or three Sage's Lore during the Laning phase and increase the harassing potential of his lane partner. Buys mana regeneration items to further assist.
    Support Build:
    - Vindicator skills Sages Lore but takes care to get the highest rank aura possible. Uses both Power and Silence. Buys support items and if needed, SOTM for the extra silencing power. Puts a few points in attribute bonus for the middle game phase.
    The Carry Vindicator:
    - Vindicator rushes skilling Master's Incantation. He puts 1 or 2 points in his aura for Glyph of Power to help with mana efficiency. Also gets attribute bonus early on.

    When I talk with other people about Vindicator and what needs to be changed, many suggest adding an escape ability, increasing his MS, hp growth, etc; however, these remove his weaknesses. To remove them would be to detract from his specialized focus -- something I find lacking in many HoN heroes. I think these changes add reasonable versatility and better differentiate the playstyles of his two roles -- carry and support without removing his main weaknesses.


    Your thoughts/comments/criticism are very much appreciated.
    Last edited by Banefull; 12-16-2010 at 03:35 AM.

  2. #2
    Note: All values subject to change.

  3. #3
    First.

    I like the changes to Lore and Incantation a lot, but I'm not sure about making glyph a silence. While it adds a lot of depth in highlighting his role choices, it really hurts his hybrid stats. Lack of silence aura makes carry vindi a walking target in team fights. If he can't get int through smart positioning and surviving team fights, support vindi becomes all but an ult on a stick late game. I haven't played enough vindi to fully understand his role versatility, but my understanding is that he scales by survival early game until he gets deadly late game.

    tl;dr - I like turning vindi from superduperniche pick to decent in a lot of lineups. Sage's Lore buff is especially awesome because it's not weak to a spammable skill/does damage on a normal skill/gets negated (but still counters, kinda) high cost skills.
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    they should just make a floating boob for an alt. that would satisfy them.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Serris View Post
    I'm not sure about making glyph a silence. While it adds a lot of depth in highlighting his role choices, it really hurts his hybrid stats. Lack of silence aura makes carry vindi a walking target in team fights. If he can't get int through smart positioning and surviving team fights, support vindi becomes all but an ult on a stick late game. I haven't played enough vindi to fully understand his role versatility, but my understanding is that he scales by survival early game until he gets deadly late game.
    I am confused. He has always had glyph as his silence ability and I never removed his silence aura. Just added a toggle between one aura or the other. He can turn on the silence aura whenever he wants. There are situations where silence aura isn't needed and thus he could switch to glyph of power (for ex: some heroes like ,,,,,,,,,:chro:,,,,, ,,,,, do not use back to back ability combos; i.e. silence aura is almost worthless vs them)


    Thanks for the comments though.

    EDIT: I can see where the source of confusion might have been. You may have thought that I made it into an active ability (this is incorrect as I still kept it as an aura). It says "activation" in Vindicator's original tooltip (i.e. turn aura on/off). Edited original post to clarify.
    Last edited by Banefull; 12-12-2010 at 02:18 AM.

  5. #5
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    I also remember DotA's Silencer mid solo carry playstyle (LightofHeaven was godlike at this) and would not mind having some more versatility added to the hero in HoN. Playing him full support, warding and basically having to hide in team fights so his aura does the job is seriously boring as hell. I honestly can't think about any issue with the suggested chnges at the moment. Good job there !

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by YoJ View Post
    Playing him full support, warding and basically having to hide in team fights so his aura does the job is seriously boring as hell.
    The current state of Vindicator is rather boring. One of my motivations for the aura change.

    Speaking of which, it would need a cooldown to prevent spamming. I'm thinking 3 to 4 seconds.
    Last edited by Banefull; 12-13-2010 at 07:20 AM.

  7. #7

  8. #8
    Bump,

    On track for popular suggestions.

    If you see anyhting that needs tweaking by all means speak up! Kinda lonely in here P
    Last edited by Banefull; 12-15-2010 at 07:34 PM.

  9. #9
    Master's incantation cooldown updated to reflect 2.0.1 changes.

  10. #10
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    I really, really like this, I'd love for vindi to get this "remake." I like the differentiating glyphs and most of all the first skill. Not much to say but I just really like this.

  11. #11
    A very thoughfull and nice job! I aprove... But there is more to do IMO... He doesn't need just some rearrangements avoiding him to become more powerfull... He really needs to become more powerfull! He is so soft, that even if you try and make him a tank on items he will die fast, and damage less than a keeper of the forest without items(early and late game).
    And if you build him all inteligence, his damage output is enormous! Yes... but the extra damage of skill won't hit magic imune units :ShrunkenHead: and he will "accidentaly" die in battle without even noticing ... And even if he does survive, his movement speed is so depleted that he can not run or follow enemies (no slow, no stun).

    He is a good hero at the lane, but easy to counter, easy to kill , and almost useless mid-late.

    If i am going to pick a hero to "FCK" all the team like his ult promotes, and have good damage output i really prefer some other heroes: .

    If i want a good lane-early game hero: Wich gets a LOT stronger with each level.... It's not the case of vindicator.

    Vindicator lacks power to be an early game hero, and lacks the power to become a carry... Even a semi-carry!

    If he is a hero that can be both, i say he should at least be as good as for example, early AND late game.

    Some new changes would be nice on him on top of those you said:

    Sages Lore: Causes 0.1/0.2/0.3/0.4 mini-stun and aplies 20% movement slow for the duration in addition to other effects.
    (This would help him run a little and chase, like other carrys , but not AS effective, and would help in battle as a support but not as effective as others )

    Master's Incantation: At level 4 ignore magic immunity on heroes.

    Inscribed Glyphs: Passively grants +1/1/2/2 magic armor and +3/6/9/12 Strenght.
    (This would prevent the skill to be just a "leave it on level 1" and actualy be a good one to level early on fast, helping vindicator to survive a tiny bit more)

    Glyph of Silence: when an enemy hero first enters the radius of the aura, he is silenced for 1.00/1.75/2.50/3.25 sec. And when he leaves the aura he is purged from any silence done by Glyph of silence (this would prevent permanent silencing by moving back and forth on enemies. Purging the inicial silence and the silence done by using a spell in the radius, but not hellflower or ultimate's silence) [The advantage is tremendous! He would silence everyone as soon as he comes in battle (or them), but he must stay in battle, if he leaves they will unsilence! Killing him would be the way out]

    Glyph of Power: For every 2 points of mana vindicator uses, he is healed 1 point of life. Stackable with Nome's of Wisdom.
    (This would help him regain some health in the lane, not as efective as , but every little hit he takes he must go back to fountain. I think he deserve a nice regeneration.
    Late game this would be a little life steal (15 hp per shot). Not as efective as or any other life steal item... But if he is a damage auto-attacking hero he needs it!! BADLY!... And he is so weak, that life steal only won't do it, he will have to spend some gold on defensive items, again lacking in damage.)

    Final Chapter: Cast time: 0 seconds
    Make it a recognition aura of 1000 radius and the ability to auto-cast.
    If toggled on auto-cast, ultimate is used as soon as an enemy hero uses a skill within the aura's radius. (or if used normaly)
    The benefits of this change is obvious.

    Make movement speed: 295 or 300.

    There. The same damage as before, as easy as die with a combo like before, but better. With this changes he would fit properly on HoN just like other almighty heroes

  12. #12
    To be honest, I am split in two ways on this.

    I agree on your reasoning for Lore, especially on the spammers. I believe that it could be better. In dota, I remember how the dot is doubled when the target has no mana. I rlly hate it how the move is useless late game, so I also think that it should be True damage, something hon needs more of.

    I am hesitant on the Master's inc, since it means he has unlimited shots with the aura on, and I am sure trolls will go crazy. Still I push this 100%.

    LOOOOVE the glyph ideas, since wtf a huge ass book with only 4 pages? Fxk that. But only bad thing is having to switch auras for the +int. I suggest keeping the old aura, thus combing the first two you posted. As for the last one, keep it, though the refunding mana is what Obsidian does. I suggest a new aura that possibly damages for 250 at level 4 each time an enemy casts a spell.
    lolyouredead, quality hero designer 2010
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    Go on...click the link... You know you want to...


  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Oponomo View Post
    Some new changes would be nice on him on top of those you said:

    Sages Lore: Causes 0.1/0.2/0.3/0.4 mini-stun and aplies 20% movement slow for the duration in addition to other effects.
    (This would help him run a little and chase, like other carrys , but not AS effective, and would help in battle as a support but not as effective as others )

    Master's Incantation: At level 4 ignore magic immunity on heroes.

    Inscribed Glyphs: Passively grants +1/1/2/2 magic armor and +3/6/9/12 Strenght.
    (This would prevent the skill to be just a "leave it on level 1" and actualy be a good one to level early on fast, helping vindicator to survive a tiny bit more)

    Glyph of Silence: when an enemy hero first enters the radius of the aura, he is silenced for 1.00/1.75/2.50/3.25 sec. And when he leaves the aura he is purged from any silence done by Glyph of silence (this would prevent permanent silencing by moving back and forth on enemies. Purging the inicial silence and the silence done by using a spell in the radius, but not hellflower or ultimate's silence) [The advantage is tremendous! He would silence everyone as soon as he comes in battle (or them), but he must stay in battle, if he leaves they will unsilence! Killing him would be the way out]

    Glyph of Power: For every 2 points of mana vindicator uses, he is healed 1 point of life. Stackable with Nome's of Wisdom.
    (This would help him regain some health in the lane, not as efective as , but every little hit he takes he must go back to fountain. I think he deserve a nice regeneration.
    Late game this would be a little life steal (15 hp per shot). Not as efective as or any other life steal item... But if he is a damage auto-attacking hero he needs it!! BADLY!... And he is so weak, that life steal only won't do it, he will have to spend some gold on defensive items, again lacking in damage.)

    Final Chapter: Cast time: 0 seconds
    Make it a recognition aura of 1000 radius and the ability to auto-cast.
    If toggled on auto-cast, ultimate is used as soon as an enemy hero uses a skill within the aura's radius. (or if used normaly)
    The benefits of this change is obvious.

    Make movement speed: 295 or 300.

    There. The same damage as before, as easy as die with a combo like before, but better. With this changes he would fit properly on HoN just like other almighty heroes
    My Goodness! Perhaps he needs a buff or two but thats just.... overkill on many levels.

    Quote Originally Posted by LolYouReDead View Post
    To be honest, I am split in two ways on this.

    I agree on your reasoning for Lore, especially on the spammers. I believe that it could be better. In dota, I remember how the dot is doubled when the target has no mana. I rlly hate it how the move is useless late game, so I also think that it should be True damage, something hon needs more of.
    I have a feeling that would be too powerful. There is a threshold where a Vindicator early lane phase could result in shutting out too much of the opposing teams farm and I think true damage would clearly push it over the reasonable limit. It would also eliminate any option to counter Vindicator in the early lane phase. With my proposed changes, heroes with spam abilities will become fair game for Sage's Lore; however, heroes like (stonehide), (carapace), (focus buffer) would still be fairly resistent to his harassment. There needs to be some counter to his laning phase.

    And yes Lore is rather useless late game but then again, on most int heroes, Nukes do not scale well. I do not see any reason off the top of my head why Vindicator should be made an exception.

    Quote Originally Posted by LolYouReDead View Post
    I am hesitant on the Master's inc, since it means he has unlimited shots with the aura on, and I am sure trolls will go crazy. Still I push this 100%.
    Quite the contrary. With Master's Incantation manacost doubled and aura at around 50% chance, he still gets the same mana efficiency as the old skillset. Currently, most carry Vindicators do not get Sage's Lore and go straight for stat bonus and incantation. My reasoning behind the change is that the carry vindicator is just a sad and rather useless thing in early game. A lvl 6 at 50% hp could just walk up to him, ult, autoattack, and kill him. By increasing the damage of incantation at earlier levels, he can deal more competive damage. With the change, a 100% vs 100% at lvl 6 would still result in winning but at least it would not be so unbelievably lopsided.

    A mana aura at least gives him some utility to his team if he does decide to go carry build. Really it is only meant purely for the carry playstyle and not for laning dominance. The mana aura does not work well with Sage's Lore as it would take 4 Lores to statistcally get enough mana for an extra Lore cast (remember this is rank 4 aura at lvl 7, prior to that he gets much less).

    Quote Originally Posted by LolYouReDead View Post
    LOOOOVE the glyph ideas, since wtf a huge ass book with only 4 pages? Fxk that. But only bad thing is having to switch auras for the +int. I suggest keeping the old aura, thus combing the first two you posted. As for the last one, keep it, though the refunding mana is what Obsidian does. I suggest a new aura that possibly damages for 250 at level 4 each time an enemy casts a spell.
    For such a big book, it is pretty worthless

    Both auras are intended to give + int upon an enemy hero dieing within an 800 radius. I may need to go back and clarify that. Yes there are opportunities for more aura ideas. It is possible to give him 3 (open for ideas).

    Thanks for the comments everyone.

    ------------------
    One of my goals is to differentiate carry and support playstyles without making one clearly better than the other. I believe that if these changes were implemented, you would find that playing a support Vindi and a carry Vindi would feel like playing 2 seperate unique heroes altogether.

    I am also very cautious in giving him direct buffs as I feel that he could easily become too powerful.
    (i.e. the gap between being an underwhelming super niche pick and an OP pick is very narrow)
    Last edited by Banefull; 12-16-2010 at 04:05 AM.

  14. #14
    How about splitting his first skill in 2 or 3 like soulstealer?
    All same cooldown, mana cost and duration... Removing LOTS of mana OR LOTS of Health.
    And maybe making it scale with his INT attribute so won't be useless lategame.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Oponomo View Post
    Master's Incantation: At level 4 ignore magic immunity on heroes.
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but masters incantation adds true damage to his attacks, not magic, so I'm pretty sure magic immunity doesn't have an effect on it

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by BigBagOCrabs View Post
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but masters incantation adds true damage to his attacks, not magic, so I'm pretty sure magic immunity doesn't have an effect on it
    Correct

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by BigBagOCrabs View Post
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but masters incantation adds true damage to his attacks, not magic, so I'm pretty sure magic immunity doesn't have an effect on it
    Wrong.

    Even being true damage, it is not apllied to magic immune units... I don't know about jereziah's skill or predator's... But shrunken head i'm sure.
    UNLESS they changed this in some patch i missed. i'll test it right away on practice mode!

  18. #18
    Yeah right, it keeps true damage working. I was wrong. But whattever... HE NEEDS BUFFS!

  19. #19
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    is situational pick so stop crying about his appearance in-game!
    :SymbolOfRage:

  20. #20

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