Can anyone tell me what the point of APM is in HoN? In games like Starcraft or Warcraft 3 it is obviously the dominant factor in how good you are, assuming their actions are being put to good use such as microing, training units, building, etc. However, in an arena-based game such as DotA or HoN, a high APM seems not to matter as much because it seems to me that there are only so many things you can do before the extra "executed actions" become counter-productive. I sit around 70-75 APM but I've been told that optimum APM is 100+ for a good player.
I've been given various reasons such as it helps you become unpredictable especially against lanes such as Devo or Valkyrie. Also, it means that you are last hitting/denying and moving around the map more, just doing more in general.
However that's where I tend to disagree. I find that I last hit and deny just as well as other players, usually out csing them in the laning phase (and beyond if I am playing a carry,) and I can also move unpredictably when I have to. The difference between me and these 100+ players to me seems only to be the fact that I only move or "execute actions" when I have to rather than needlessly right clicking, stopping, holding position, animation cancelling, etc. I do move around, but not as much as the guys who are steady right clicking getting half their APM from how many times they click to move to the same spot in the run of a minute.
Can anyone tell me what I am missing here? Is there something I should be doing that I am not? At what point would 100+ APM actually be beneficial and not just a "right clicking every 1/2 second" sort of deal?
Positioning is key throughout the entire game, from doing some extra harass during laning phase, to catch someone/don't get caught out of position in teamfights etc, so you should be spam clicking every move you do. Also, hon path finding sucks. Sure, most of it is excessive, but you'll see most hon pros have at least 100apm, if not 200 (damn those koreans).
One more thing, animation cancel if you aren't already doing it.
For now, if you don't feel you need to do it, then don't let other people pressure you into thinking you have to do so. Increased APM comes normally through practice.
During the laning phrase, as Mantle mentioned, positioning is important. It's as simple as making sure to step back a little so that the enemy babysitter doesn't get an extra hit on you in order to pull the creep wave, or adjusting your position to last hit that next creep, as well as something more obvious like avoiding Devo's Hook/Valkyrie's Javelin as you've already been told.
And if you think you're already doing all that with your current APM, then don't worry about it.
I find there's minor things where additional APM might be of assistance. For example you're chasing down an enemy hero trying to get that last kill and he attempts to juke. If you've just right clicked once on the enemy hero following him, your hero will stop moving once that enemy hero disappears from sight (and sometimes that's enough for the enemy hero to TP away as you react). However if you continually click forwards in the direction that the enemy hero is (given that you know the juking spots as well), you can avoid that small delay of time.
There's other things you can also do with your APM. As a mainly support player I'm continually checking my wards uptime and whether they're off CD in the shop or not, what items my teammates have and what items the enemy heroes have. All these small things can pick up useful information and allow you to plan in advance.
I have a friend that tops out at about 220 apm and I sit around the 70-90 range typically. I don't think I'm an amazing player but I hold my own in 1650+ games. I'd like to think I'm atleast above average. My friend that tops out at 220 apm is usually feeding. It's pretty incredible to see him have a score of 1-9 on madman while I'm 3-3 on dsham with my 80 apm. I think it helps to have high apm in certain situations, but it's not like double digit apm means you're never going to succeed.
In the end I don't think APM matters one bit. You will find good players with low APM and you'll find bad players with high APM.
This might be different in the pro-scene as most will probably have high APM, but the pro-scene is completely different than the standard pubs in every way so it can be disregarded here in the Training Grounds. Also I'm pretty sure almost all pro players comes from Dota, who came from Warcraft 3/Starcraft where they built a high APM.
Over 90 is avg for good players.
APM doesn't make you a good or a bad player. There are plenty of professional-caliber hon players who have APM less than 100 depending on which hero they play.
I personally tend to have highish apm ~160-180 when I'm playing melee heroes who have fast movement speeds. On slower heroes or ranged heroes my APM is around 120-150. On armadon it's around 180-200, on legionnaire it has been as low as 85.
However, I've certainly noticed that people with less than 80 APM are generally poor players. This isn't always the case but an apm of 50-60 usually indicates that you aren't doing very much with your hero.
Aside from being above a certain minimum APM, APM alone doesn't say how good or bad you are. There are certain things you can do, however, that will naturally raise your APM, such as animation canceling, juking, better pathfinding, and minion microing, all of which tend to be used by better players.
APM dont mean nothin here, i roflstomp games with an apm always between 60-80, rare im higher.
i dont see a reason to click 5 times in the same place when 1 click does the same exact thing, some argue it keeps your fingers in good shape but to each his own.
Lets you do some other things like fog juke by hugging the tree-line, micro minions really well (Tundra, Balphagore, Ophelia, Puzzlebox, Geometer's Bane, etc), attack-move, orb walk, animation cancel, and so on.
To an extent, higher APM also generally means higher awareness as well. A person that clicks on a jungle camp only once to get to it from the previous one will react slower than a person that is constantly clicking.
As you said it also helps you move unpredictably to avoid something that you know is coming (Devourer Hook, Valkyrie Javelin, etc). But it also helps to avoid things you don't know are coming. A person using "H" to stand still in between CS is a very easy target for something like a Hook or Javelin from the fog, or even an invisible Pebbles.
If you look at any very high level or competitive game you'll almost always see every player have over 100 APM.
Last edited by Chumazik; 11-09-2010 at 11:47 PM.
the number itself doesn't matter at all, what's actually important is how many of those actions that has any importance whatsoever, ie not merely moving back and forth for only doing so. while this is true higher skilled players almost always has +100 apm. this is much because of attack and spells cancels, attack walking, and having high priority in good positioning.
Everything has to deal with postitioning and timing. Last ~80 games I've been around 130 and believe me, it makes a huge difference on itself.
My APM in SC2 and HoN hover around 200. I'm not that good at either of them. APM does nothing.
APM is not a measure of skill, but it's still good to keep it around 100 because HoN pathing sucks and you can't rely on it.
Keeping around 100 apm, well 90+ is just as much as you need to keep moving.
As in my opinion moving is always important if you are out on a lane, you can never be too sure if someone will try to nuke your ass out with a non-target stun/spell, you'll get harder to hit, meaning better survival.
The more APM, the more room for improvement and skill.
Someone with 60 APM will never do more than 60 actions per minute
Someone with 200 APM has the potential to do 200 super useful actions per minute.
You should see APM as potential, not as a standalone something.
[stream]www.twitch.tv/Kaluroo[Type /join Kaluro in-game for a fun pub channel!]In HoN, attacking structures during the absence of creeps is not backdooring.If someone is utilizing guerrilla style tactics on your structures, it is an acceptable strategy.
Having a high APM (200-ish) means you CAN do it when you need to. APM is most important during laning and during fights. No-one is expecting you to orb-walk or cancel animation while farming neuts. But if you've never been higher than 150 APM, you'll not be able to when you need to.
TL;DR: It keeps your fingers warmed up.
Also lets you control the pathing to an extent and juke by cancelling autoattack/spell animations.
"A high APM isn't an indicator of high skill, but a low APM is generally an indicator of low skill."
Last edited by Chumazik; 11-10-2010 at 10:52 AM.
APM is only an indicator when you see extremes. I recall seeing an abysmal scout and not being surprised to see an APM of 30ish. But once you're in the 100+ range efficiency is what matters. If you need to run to fountain, one click is enough, but I've got friends who sit there furiously clicking the fountain nonstop until their hero arrives. Once you're at like 200+ and presumably you're animation canceling and such, rather than padding your APM artificially, then sure it can conceivably measure some degree of skill.
Recently I've been trying to get into the habit of making every single attack in the lane manually, but even then I doubt I'll ever go beyond 200, but that being said, I'm not a particularly good player.
Last edited by Feediculous; 11-10-2010 at 11:00 AM.